It's sad to see that young males believe masculinity to be "emotionally closed/inauthentic." Messages about "toxic masculinity" are most likely contributing to that.
I can't keep up with some of it these days but feminists abusing masculinity can't help. I see comments that 'Men are obsolete'. Tell you what, when I see a gang of feminists coming round on a Tuesday morning emptying my bins, I concede. But we are a long way past the male chauvinist attitudes of the '70s!
I find the extreme certainty that people like the author of this piece have with this issue confusing. The fact is that this cohort of ROGD teen boys is a very new cohort and there is no comprehensive data or research on these boys. It seems likely there is some percentage of these ROGD boys with AGP, but we 1) absolutely have no reliable data to tell us if this number is 25%, 50%, 75% or whatever, 2) if how teen boys experience AGP is different from that of older males, or 3) have any proof of whether or not the current fentanyl-intensity levels of online porn access and content has different effects on developing brains than what teens were exposed to in pre-internet times. We also don't know if all the observational and anecdotal evidence cited by the author and others with similar views is looking at a representative sample of teen boys. Not all ROGD boys are in the spotlight discussing their experiences or showing up in therapist offices and gender clinics to be observed in this way. Are those boys somehow different and more likely to have AGP traits?
Of course, the author (and those in his camp) could be 100% right about all this, but the data and research aren't there to insist on this explanation with the insistence and certainty that's being done here and in other places. Just like we don't know the real numbers on detransition rates, we don't know the real numbers here. I feel like holding this opinion so tightly, assuming all the old research on AGP and porn still applies, and insisting there's no other way to look at it is just as misguided as insisting the regret rate is still 1%.
"I feel like holding this opinion so tightly, assuming all the old research on AGP and porn still applies..."
I came to this conclusion after a lot of research and reading/listening to different dysphoric males' experiences- the vast majority of which are written anonymously online. I initially believed the social contagion model or something else impacting the boys. But the more I dug, the clearer it got it's almost all AGP.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond in a good faith way. If I may push back just a bit, the following point from your response gets directly at one of the points I'm trying to make:
"I came to this conclusion after a lot of research and reading/listening to different dysphoric males' experiences- the vast majority of which are written anonymously online."
When you are doing research you have to consider the sample you are getting your data from and whether there is some kind of self-selection bias (for example, who is signing up for the research study or showing up in the doctors office or clinic). The researcher also has to consider his sampling methods. In this case you are saying that your sample is coming from males who are willing to talk openly about their experiences, and as you described "the vast majority" being online and anonymous talking about their experiences. There is no way to verify online anonymous narratives (this is why anecdotal and case study reports are considered much lower on the pyramid of research quality). Also there is a self-selection bias happening for the type of person who goes online to talk about such personal experiences. These factors are just basic things that a person must consider when they are doing research, no matter what field or topic their research is happening in.
As I said, I'm not arguing that there are not AGP males in the ROGD cohort. I'm pretty sure there are although I will make no gas at what those numbers are. What I'm saying is that we don't have the data to make any definitive or conclusive statements about how many boys this applies to, if this current manifestation of AGP traits is the same as what is seen in adults (as an analogy, comparing borderline personality traits and symptoms and how they evolve and adolescents versus young adulthood versus middle-age), or if there are other pathways boys take into ROGD that are not as obvious and attention grabbing as the AGP males. We don't need to be doing the same kind of bad research practices that we are trying to counter being done by researchers like Turban and Tordoff. Jesse Singal's and Leor Sapir's excellent critiques of poor research methodologies apply to us too.
I am familiar with the concept of selection bias. But this is not a scientific study. It is the conclusion I came to from reading countless accounts of MtF(tM)'s experiences. The data collected from clinical records is close to useless on this population because the culture tells them to lie to clinicians. The best way to actually understand their experiences is to listen to what they're saying when there are no stakes (anon online) and what the community consensus is to those feelings. From all my time doing so, I have not found a 3rd type of GD in males.
What we are not able to do with all these males in those populations is to question them.
Once something is named and classified, people will start looking for those symptoms when in fact their memory may not be reliable. They have recall bias. This is no different with other populations such as those with psychosomatic disorders.
Great points, could not have said it better. For me the biggest gap in the article was that "pseudobisexuality" section like:
are bisexuals a legit thing in the author's mind or not? If they aren't, why is this stuff callet LGBT Courage Coalition and not LGT? What's the B doing there? is it standig for Bullsh*tters? Bilinguals? Bakers? is it just performative empty inclusion??
If on contrary genuine bisexuals are a thing in the authors mind, are they inherently immune to gender dysphoria?? If they are, why is that not being studied? And if they aren't, how can the author (no, anybody!) square that with saying there is only two types of male dysphorics: AGPs who are all straight/gynephilic and HSTS who are all homosexual/androphilic???
We must see "sexuality as a spectrum" the author says, but the ambiphilics are mysteriously missing from the picture.
But you must take this article as jus fact. Yeah, not buying it.
Bisexual behavior exists, including in male AGPs. The etiology of the behavior, as in whether or not its really equal attraction to male and female bodies, is up for debate.
This is an opinion piece and should be framed as such. Just because you have been studying these boys and talking to clinicians doesn't mean you discovered the truth. Where is the proof? Where is the proof that "attraction direction" is something innate (or even a thing)? Where is the proof that porn doesn't cause dysphoria in boys? If you have no data, then this is just an opinion. Downplaying the effect of porn seems irresponsible, tbh.
It lines up with what experts who have dealt with this population have been saying from their observations, work with the population, study, research and writing for well over a hundred years. Blanchard specifically, from the 1980s coined the term Autogynephilia, of AGP for short, but it built on the work of many proceeding him. Start with this: https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/. Start reading through the sources and keep going.
Autogynephilia is a model which excludes the known neurological factors which have been identified by researchers such as Ramachandran, Zhou and Diamond.
Pseudotranssexualism was a phenomenon known in the 1970s. To accuse all transsexuals of AGP is grossly insulting and a claim made without evidence.
Blanchard didn’t lump all transsexuals into AGP. Zhou’s identification of the BSNT was shown to only become sexually dimorphic in adulthood, so it’s irrelevant to HSTS. Ramachardran also isn’t reproducible and his mirror theory doesn’t show any causation and even correlation. Diamond, the twins studies are also correlation not causation and there is confounding problems with the evidence.
She has her biases like everyone else. I would guess that she shies away from the porn issue because it hits a little too close to home, lol. But on the rest her reasoning is mostly sound, though I agree that lack of evidence is an issue and she lets AGPs off the hook too easily.
I mean, it is, but I don't think it makes it less valuable nonetheless. I'm on Substack specifically to read diverse opinions, including some I don't 100% agree with (unlike back in my TRA echo chamber days lol). I never heard of these sexology terms before, for example, and I think it is a valuable knowledge (which I think could be used in the aro/ace discourses as well for example) and I personally never really read much nuances in regards to heterosexual agps. Everything is to take with a grain of salt (including official studies which can be heavily biased or have a very small sample or have specific wordings in questions) and I try to learn what I can everywhere :). I'm not idolising the author (who is flawed like the rest of us and other activists), I just think it was quite an interesting read, with quality explanations about things I didn't know about and overall I'm going to bed knowing a bit more because of it and I think that's the essential ;)
It means no AGP is harmless, because they suffer from an inherently narcissistic condition, and they are male, with all the privileges that brings. They are a psychological hazard to any women they become involved with, since the more confident they become, the greater the chance that their illness takes over their life, at which point their loving partner is SOL and in the midst of a nightmare.
It feels like it’s coming time for us to have a full professional conference on this topic as clinicians working in this space are starting to see more of these teen and young adult boys. I am also wondering if there is a parallel to this phenomenon in adolescent girls who believe they are gay boys and want to date cisgender gay boys.
Agreed! As for your interrogation, my 2cts is that it's different for girls, because it's more a way for them to escape gender oppression and incentives to be feminine. They may also perceive gay men as "safer" than straight men. There is also a very real fujoshi (girls fetichizing gay men in medias and often irl as a result) to ftm pipeline.
Thank you for sharing your views on this important issue. It really helped me understand my son more and his motivations. Thank god somebody is finally starting to figure these kids out! I just hope it helps them to understand themselves before they do irreversible harm to their bodies.
I don't agree with everything here, and I think this also downplay a bit the impact of porn/hentai in this, but this is genuinely an amazing piece that you wrote and I really liked reading it! Thank you so much for sharing! This is, at the very least, very interesting food for thoughts to bring some nuances to this and it seems quite insightful overall. You also did a very good job at making this piece accessible to the average reader, it was very clear. Take care!
This statement frames the agp narrative in terms of adults who come out as "trans". These adults often claim the reason they became trans as adults is that prior to that they were "repressed". hmm OK. sure dude.
- everyone is repressed all the time. even billionaires cant do everything they imagine every moment.
- agp isnt only a sexual experience. agp people know theyre hetro. if you look at agp porn you will see the models of attraction are women. 100% of them. choosing to ID as "trans" is something different.
- young men who ID as "trans" are rational people. they are weighting the pros and cons. becuase the gender industry has been promoting misinformation about the benefits of "trans" for 20 years, most young people who ID as trans now are simply victims of a big biz misinformation campaign. this fact supercedes the idea that increases in agp Trans ID are due to some kind of western acceptance. if you speak or chat with any of these young people you will find all of them repeat gender industry lies like mindless robots. they think gender meds will improve their lives (it wont), they think gender meds make suicide go down (nope) . they think "trans" will solve every problem they ever had (it wont). life is tough. telling young adults all their problems will be solved by "trans" is a deceptive lie but too soothing an idea for many to resist.
agp issues often have nothing to do with sexuality. they are lifestyle and life problem issues as well.
when attempting to attribute agp trans to sexuality one should consider the fact that most kids grow out of gender dysphoria with puberty, unless given gender meds. sexuality, including agp sexuality, occurs after puberty, at which point most gender dysphoria is resolved. a 20 year old who thinks they are agp trans likely doesnt have any gender dysphoria. what hes attracted to isnt the primarily idea of becoming a women. hes looking for an alternative to his perception of life's constraints. hes not being repressed by agp. hes being repressed by his own imagination that primarily incl.udes the same problems anyone has. its not easy being a young person today. the gender biz has offered them an out. as in pinocchio, they offer "come to pleasure island. eat the magic treats." its not an alternative to their gender. its an alternative to every day life.
I agree some young men choose trans as an escape. I doubt that the AGP aspect is a choice though. Sissy porn can really magnify the tendency but I think there has to be some kernel of AGP there to begin with.
And what's the source(s) of that? I hope a researcher/clinician is trying to answer that question. I would speculate that Blanchard et al have plenty of theories that they are currently keeping to themselves.
Certainly a strong fixation on a narcissist mother is one candidate pathway. The articles in PITT are chock-full of narcissist parents, for example.
Mothers who openly wish they had a daughter instead of a son is another. Most of them are probably narcissists also.
Sexual abuse? Certainly possible, I could see a pathway with either parent. It's not a coincidence that there is somewhat of a correlation between AGP and other paraphilias.
I am a parent and a reader of PITT. I do not see mothers who openly wish they had a daughter instead of a son. Nor do I see the narcissistic mothers. What I see are mothers who are in a very difficult situation trying to get their kid out of the cult but swimming against social media and the zeitgeist right now. And we are being vilified for not transing out kid if underage or not affirming if over 18. We are told we are transphobes and worse. We are hurting for many reasons and after all, we are just humans trying to do our best.
Really? You don't understand what "I agree it’s a horrible place for a parent to be in, I’m right there with you." means, for example?
You seem only interested, out of all the things that I'm saying, in the bits that could possibly, potentially reflect negatively on you. That's an indicator for hyper-defensiveness.
When we talk about the potential causes for mental illness which onset is in childhood or adolescence, there is naturally a potential for there to be a negative light shone on the parents. That's unavoidable.
If you are unable to tolerate that, it's going to be difficult for you to participate constructively in the discussion.
But if you're genuinely asking out of curiosity and desire for self-awareness whether I think your comments reflect a narcissist personality, I would say yes, as far as they go. Narcissists do tend to make everything about themselves, and are unable to tolerate even the slightest bit of criticism even if only potentially implied.
Really Hazel-rah? You seem to be focused only on YOUR interpretation of what you are reading on PITT. Your piece today saying that you wished your mother would have reacted differently illustrates that you do not see other ways of parenting and it's the only way. Families, parents and children are not perfect, but your insinuation that a child's mental illness is because of a parent is misguided. It MAY be true, but it also may not be true.
I pointed out that your statement about mothers wanting daughters instead of sons or are narcissistic is painting the mothers with a broad brush. I asked for clarification in your specific response to me in the case I didn't understand it as you meant it. And now you are reacting this way. You may view my comment as hyper-defensiveness, but it's not. It's how we communicate with others to let them know there are other alternative view points.
having an agp fetish isnt a choice. but presenting as "trans" is. one may not be able to choose if they prefer chocolate or heroin or baseball, those are preferences and hobbies. so is "trans". while in any workplace, one wouldnt be able to eat chocolate all the time, partake in recreational drugs or alcohol or wear sports fan clothing while on the job. thats becuase everyone recognizes these are choices. presenting as "trans" is a similar choice. the same stats and studys that are used to claim trans ID isnt a choice would similarly claim other hobbies arent a choice. its simply not true.
the gender industry supposes that gender presentation is arbitrary and one gender presentation is an good as the next. that maybe true if one doesnt consider gender affirmation with all its harmful interventions and rights conflicts with title 9 groups. gender meds trap vulnerable people into a life of misery. yet its claimed these meds provide the opposite. promoters of gender meds claim without evidence that these meds solve multiple issues, such as gender dysphoria, depression, social issues. yet, every gov systematic review on earth found gender meds dont help any of these things in youth. ergo, big biz is fraudulently luring vulnerable people into a harmful fraud.
theres a 1000 reasons why ppl ID as trans. this link gives a list of examples in girls.
but if people knew what a harmful fraud gender affirmation is, including how gender meds lead to significant misery, i doubt as many people would be duped into this terrible mistake
This comment doesn't actually sound like you're disagreeing with the article, but rather that you didn't read it. You took a quote from it, but how you used it suggests you didn't read where I explained why they are the same cohort. Again, fine if you disagree with that, but you're not disagreeing with what I actually wrote.
"agp isnt only a sexual experience. agp people know theyre hetro. if you look at agp porn you will see the models of attraction are women. 100% of them. choosing to ID as "trans" is something different."
AGPs know they like women and that they want to be women. However, a lot of them confuse their meta attraction to be genuine attraction and believe themselves to be androphilic. But yes it all starts as gynephilia, so I agree with your 100% claim. I also agree that choosing to ID as trans or to transition is a choice.
"young men who ID as "trans" are rational people. they are weighting the pros and cons. becuase the gender industry has been promoting misinformation about the benefits of "trans" for 20 years, most young people who ID as trans now are simply victims of a big biz misinformation campaign. this fact supercedes the idea that increases in agp Trans ID are due to some kind of western acceptance. if you speak or chat with any of these young people you will find all of them repeat gender industry lies like mindless robots. they think gender meds will improve their lives (it wont), they think gender meds make suicide go down (nope) . they think "trans" will solve every problem they ever had (it wont). life is tough. telling young adults all their problems will be solved by "trans" is a deceptive lie but too soothing an idea for many to resist."
But you're ignoring the root motivation that brings them to the trans spaces to absorb this propaganda, which is AGP. Again, I've been looking for a long time and have not found another source.
"agp issues often have nothing to do with sexuality. they are lifestyle and life problem issues as well."
If you had read the article you would know that AGP is a 'misfiring' sexuality. I don't know what you're referring to as AGP in this sentence, but typically AGP plus other 'lifestyle and life problems/issues', along with propaganda you previously mentioned, are what lead a young man to believe transition is his only solution.
"when attempting to attribute agp trans to sexuality one should consider the fact that most kids grow out of gender dysphoria with puberty, unless given gender meds. sexuality, including agp sexuality, occurs after puberty, at which point most gender dysphoria is resolved. a 20 year old who thinks they are agp trans likely doesnt have any gender dysphoria."
Most kids do outgrow dysphoria with puberty, because virtually all the kids with dysphoria prior to the onset of puberty grow up to be gay. Boys who's dypshoria *begins* with puberty are AGP. They won't outgrow it. They need to understand what it is, absent that pleasure island stuff you mentioned.
I agree with you about the propaganda, but everything else you've said demonstrates a lack of understanding what AGP is and therefore why these kids are so vulnerable to that propaganda.
OK, you got me. i didn't read the entire article. but i read a lot of it. im with you for the first part. but most of the rest is filled with speculation which imo, is wide of the mark.
"social media and porn are playing a much greater role in enabling and sustaining their self-directed sexuality than would be possible without them."
here you seem to acknowledge the truth about AGP. AGP sexuality is a fetish. and due the internet, fetishes are more widely available. Porn and fetishes function in a similar way as do drugs and alcohol. why do more people drink alcohol than take heroin? because heroin is difficult use and difficult to access. random needles are not widely available. preparing heroin, cooking it in a spoon, is a skill most people dont have. so most buy alcohol and dont take heroin. its just easier. Now theres an intoxicant even easier to get than beer. its porn. if you know anyone whose had a severe addiction, and tried to talk them out of it, they say things exactly like the people who claim they are "trans". they defend their addiction at all cost. above all else. they routinely severe long standing relationships to maintain their habit. and their fellow addicts and peer group legitimize their habit(s). this is nothing new. Google says 75% of adults have a fetish and 63% drink alcohol. when does a mild habit become an addiction? its when it negatively affects other areas of one's life. certainly those who engage in gac are affected by it in the same way as those with any other addiction.
agp sexualty is a high like a shot of whiskey. or like heroin. thats all it is. im convinced that, like me, 99% of people with agp fetish dont have any gender dysphoria and lead their lives conforming to their gender and sex with out anyone knowing, possibly not even their wives and partners. the first thing people with fetishes learn is that most other people dont enjoy their same fetish. rather they are more likely to hate their fetish. and thats OK. fetishes arent for everyone and rarely add anything good to a relationship.
being agp "trans" is more than that. to make agp sexuality a lifestyle choice via "trans" is like someone saying theyre going to shoot heroin 5X a day, and thats just how theyre going to live their life.
when their family and work relationships and performance suffer, they are often the last to attribute these effects to their addiction.
addictions and "trans" displace many of the things most adults find leads to happiness.
"but you're ignoring the root motivation that brings them to the trans spaces to absorb this propaganda, which is AGP. Again, I've been looking for a long time and have not found another source."
i think this is the part most people miss because they dont understand what its like to be a young man or a young men who is an alcoholic or drug addict or porn addict. even addiction experts dont understand the "why" of what youre referring. a short answer would be - its to escape their own uncomfortable reality.
we know addiction is a disease that ruins peoples lives. and so does "trans" if addressed with gender affirmat. theres just no evidence gender affirmation helps anyone, even if it helped you, that by itself isnt evidence in a medical sense.
there also isnt evidence of the other things you write.
but we dont have to know the answer to every question.
the big questions have all been answered.
- everyone knows kids need to use less social media.
- everyone knows there are kooks and groomers on social media with all sorts of kooky ideas.
- most people are now aware gac doesnt work and leads to severe suffering and offers no benefit.
- most people are now aware that gender ideology harms and robs the rights of women, kids, gays, people with psych issues etc.
you claim "the progressive West... glorifies being transgender, or “queer,” and asserts there is no greater villain than the straight, white man".
what would you know about what the "progressive left?" thinks? have you condered your out of touch?
what youre ascribing to cultural forces is really just an astro turf campaign to infect people with gender ideology. the only reason gender ideology has gained a foot hold is that most people dont know about it, or if they do, they know very little.
So what about those boys who had severe dysphoria from the earliest memory but didn't grow out of it at puberty? Particularly such boys who had this experience many years before social influences had anything to do with it?
This is not a scientific study. It is the conclusion I came to from reading countless reports of MtF(tM)'s experiences and observing the community consensus is to those reports.
Why is this woman (Terell) commenting on ROGD boys? She’s not a man, a clinician, a licensed professional counselor, and not a researcher. Terrell has a weird obsession with the boys. We are so tired of hearing her talk about the “AGP boys”.
Let’s hear what clinicians who are in the trenches seeing boys have to say about this. Drs Az Hakeem, Dr Joe Burgo, Dr Susan Bradley have actual credentials and they disagree with the idea that heterosexual boys are all AGP. Why don’t you interview them? They can give an educated report not just an opinion born out of a fixation on this topic.
Susan Bradley and Kenneth Zucker: https://focus.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/foc.3.4.598. “The last type of psychosexual problem is, as far as we know, the exclusive domain of adolescent males: cross-dressing associated with sexual arousal. As noted earlier, the extent of the cross-dressing varies and there is no problem, in principle, in employing the diagnosis of transvestic fetishism. As noted with adults with transvestic fetishism, a heterosexual orientation predominates. A history of GID is not part of the clinical picture, although some of these boys think about sex-reassignment surgery and are at risk for GID. Although the clinical course of GID in males with a history of transvestic fetishism seems to develop more slowly than does GID in males who are sexually attracted to other biological males (Blanchard 1994; Blanchard et al. 1987), there is now considerable clinical evidence to suggest that even among adolescents with transvestic fetishism the presence of autogynephilic feelings can be substantial, thus resulting in rather intense gender dysphoria, leading to the desire for sex-reassignment surgery.”
Dr. Hakeem has said all his patients were autistic and AGP (though he calls only anatomical AGP “AGP”, the rest he classifies as various kinds of transvestism)
Dr. Hakeem was referring to his old cohort of patients. His new book Detrans doesn't say that. He makes a difference with the new cohort of young males. BTW, you have misrepresented what Dr. Burgo has said. He has not changed at all from his stance regarding the ROGD boy who is NOT AGP.
If you're tired of hearing Aaron talk about the "AGP boys", why did you supposedly read this article and comment on it?
Aaron has put far more effort into understanding autogynephilia than all the people kvetching in these comments. That matters far more than what sex he is. I think it's smart and appropriate that he has taken an interest in learning about autogynephilia, as it is the largest driver of gender ideology and MTF gender transition.
It’s interesting that someone who was never a boy or has a boy child or a clinician thinks they are an expert on boys. My son desisted from being trans identified, he says he was just rebelling and it’s just a subculture. I know several parents whose boys have desisted, and describe it the same way. Please stop discussing our boys and boy parents with information you are not an expert on.
A man who wants to normalize their experience. It does not mean it’s every boys experience. Please stop writing about this topic. You are not helping anyone except the ones with a fetish.
I'm (Orlando) the person who wrote the piece. I don't know what you mean by "normalising".
I can see the harm of "gender identity" ideology, and would like it being stopped being taught as a matter of fact to children. I have put what I would like see happen here:
Yyeeeaahhh, I'll take your word for it that you see some harm, but you sure don't appear to grasp the emotional component. And if you can take that feminist-hating BS somewhere else, that would be great.
Yikes, the author of that piece betrays a profound lack of appreciation for the extent and depth of trauma that has been caused by the gaslighting and bullying of autogynephiles. They are the leaders of a cult that has destroyed or damaged countless lives, families, careers and bodies, and has compromised the fundamental integrity of entire professions and industries.
The opposition to AGPs isn't "ideological". It's visceral. And blaming it on feminists as much as he does is ignorant and offensive. Hey Orlando (yes I know you're in here), it's mostly women complaining because it's mostly women and the children they care for who've been harmed, numbnuts.
I’m a parent who lost a kid to this too. I understand the pain and anger. However, I think you are scapegoating. This isn’t one person nor a group of people’s fault and failing to acknowledge that will only further the problems. These are complex issues, that demand nuance and understanding. If we want to help our kids, reducing them to victims and trying to solve their complex issues with simple solutions isn’t going to do it. Beating up caricatures isn’t going to help them. For my kid it was a combination of a lot of things that got them to a trans identity. They took all of their problems and funneled them into a simple solution, called trans. Let’s not do those same thing.
That's like saying "You can't blame all of Scientology's toxic and harmful effects on David Miscavige."
Yes, you actually CAN blame a lot of a cult's harmful activities on the leaders of the cult. That's not to say that their minions are blameless; every adult is fully responsible for their choices. But to quibble over how much of the blame the leaders get is an attempt to distract and deflect.
You are being WAY too defensive of AGPs, why - because your kid is now one of them, or perhaps involved with one? Don't worry - we all want to help people get out of the cult. But trivializing the harm that the cult has caused is not part of a successful strategy.
The opposition to men with autogynephilia who support "gender identity" ideology, is not ideological. However the caricaturing of autogynephilia is a continuation of the ideology that views society in terms of the oppressor vs. oppressed.
It is not possible to criticise the current trans movement, without criticising the feminist movement before it.
The feminist movement provided the social constructivist ideology that supports "trans": "“man” and “woman” are fictions, caricatures, cultural constructs” (Andrea Dworkin, 1974), "Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity", (Butler, 1990).
It also provided the political environment that allowed "trans" to flourish: the division of society into the oppressed vs. oppressor. with exemptions from the rule of law for those deemed as the oppressed, and cancellations for those deemed the oppressor.
The broad base of support for "gender identity" ideology comes from feminists who believe that they are fighting the "cis, heteronormative, patriarchy": [1] the "trans" issue split the feminist movement in two [2].
If one cannot criticise what led to gender identity ideology, then no effective challenge can be made against it.
^^And this is my friends is a classic example of progressive misogyny. Trying to blame all the post-WWII social constructivist BS that originated with narcissistic liberal men like Foucalt, on the feminist activists who have been fighting for their rights for well over 100 years. What garbage.
You're doing the same thing that right-wing men do, blaming feminists for everything that women do that you don't like, even if what they did has nothing to do with feminism.
How convenient - if women were only less uppity, they would never do anything we didn't like! So, everything they do is feminists' fault!
BS, my friend. Bull. Shit.
Strong women have NEVER fallen for trans ideology. They have fought it longer than anyone, whether they are radical feminists or clear-eyed conservatives.
The fact that so many liberal women have been successfully gaslit by narcissist autogynephilic men into being their foot soldiers is a testament to the male supremacy that society still suffers from, yes even liberal society. If it wasn't still all about teh menz, the AGPs would never have gotten this far.
I'll grant you this much – liberal women need to ask themselves some hard questions. The patriarchy is real but they are responsible for empowering themselves, and learning to be able to say "No" to members of their own tribe. Emphasizing their own victimhood can go too far and hold themselves back from empowerment.
If it were the case that your son or those other desisted sons are in fact autogynephilic, would you want to know the truth? Or would you prefer to hear a comforting social-constructionist narrative?
^^This is a good example of a typical AGP mindfucking attempt. He hits you with a piece of BS first then immediately skips to another piece of BS that distracts you from the first one. You're at risk of getting tongue-tied and confused trying to respond to multiple pieces of flying BS at once.
The key is not to respond to the specific content of what he's saying at all. 95% of the time that an AGP opens their mouth in public, they are trying to gaslight somebody. They do not mean well; you need not treat them with respect. It's more accurate to think of their words as an attempted assault than an attempt at communication.
If you want to respond, you only need listen enough to get a general sense so that you know how to shoot him down.
Like this: "Of course you think that everyone's sons are like you! So special."
Does this seem cruel? Oh no. AGPs are very, very toxic and psychologically dangerous people. We need not be concerned about their feelings in the slightest. They are obsessed, and will not give up until/unless they are demoralized.
>He hits you with a piece of BS first then immediately skips to another piece of BS that distracts you from the first one. You're at risk of getting tongue-tied and confused trying to respond to multiple pieces of flying BS at once.
Ma'am, I sincerely apologize for overloading your cognitive capacity by writing two sentences instead of one.
"This is a caricature". Lol. There are thousands of "caricatures" of AGPs out there; for some reason they all seem to share an indifference to the suffering of and hostility towards women, especially feminists. https://terfisaslur.com
Just like you showed in your article linked farther above by Terrell. Weird coincidence!
O'Malley's/Genspect's expertise and focus is on/with kids. She has been quite open about her lack of expertise on the behavior of adult autogynephiles especially towards women.
Your article that you linked just above does not address that topic at all. You know this, but offer it anyway, disingenuously. Bad look.
Thank you very much for destigmatizing the concept of autosexuality. I now know that people who've been calling me a narcissist all my life are just autophobic bigots. I can finally stop hiding in the closet and repressing my feelings. As an autosexual and autoromantic, I feel incredibly lucky to have met myself. I came and swept myself off my feet. I promise, I will be with myself till death does me part.
Why do you think trying to understand psychosexual phenomena equals endorsing or encouraging that phenomena?
It's been clear to me for a long time that the way to end gender ideology is to shine a light on the root psychological motivations that are causing people to adopt that ideology. That is how we blow through the smoke and mirrors that is 'gender identity'. If you have a better solution, I'm all ears.
In your essay you write "We must also conceptualize it in terms of direction: allo or auto. And just like how people can experience target sexuality on a spectrum, with andro on one end and gyno on the other, some also experience the direction of their sexuality on a spectrum, with auto on one end and allo on the other. " This way of describing shows normalizing of autosexuality, like it's just another spectrum such as heterosexual - homosexual. Normalizing is pretty much endorsing. Even if there are rare people who are only attracted to themselves, it doesn't put such attraction (which cannot bring a loving meaningful relationship) on some type of "it's all good" spectrum. With a spectrum, where do you draw the line if not all of it is normal? (By normal I mean healthy and not harmful to the person who experiences it or those around). For example, just because there are people who are sexually attracted to kids , we don't create an age attraction spectrum ranging from pedophiles to gerantrophiles , with same age attraction in the middle. No, I don't have a solution, so my opinion is not worth much but I am pretty sure the solution is not in normalization. Admitting the problem would be the starting point as with any problem.
I don't understand the charge of 'normalization'. I'm not concerned with what is 'normal'. I'm concerned with what simply IS. Bad, good, normal, abnormal... It's all irrelevant to what is true.
Murder is objectively bad. I think everyone can at least agree there. Understanding the psychology of people who commit murder is not 'normalizing' it.
To address your example, if plotting pedophilia on a spectrum helped people understand the phenomenon and prevent child abuse, I'd plot that on a spectrum too. But pedophilia doesn't work that way. (pedophiles are typically locked on a certain age range, the age range at which they stopped cognitively maturing themselves.)
AGP is. It exists. Regardless of how we feel about that. And I believe people need to understand it in order 1) combat the ideology that enables it's current course of circumventing women and girls rights and safety and 2) actually help boys and young men who have it. If you think not understanding it and/or only speaking about it in demonizing language will better achieve those two goals, have at it! I think that's counterproductive, but you do you. I'll keep doing it my way.
that's the thing...understanding the psychology of murder is not normalizing it, but labeling kids "murderers" if they share some of the psychological elements of adult murderers and then telling them that they were born this way, while also implying that environmental factors are not at play, is grotesque.
We need to be concerned with what is normal in order to help those who do something that is not. If a young man is assured that he is just an AGP and that is innate, normal, part of another sexuality spectrum, isn't there a pretty big risk that he will internalize such a message and make no effort to change? Won't he be likely to escalate? If we consider autosexuality to be normal and "just born that way", then any therapy to address it will become "conversion therapy" , sounds familiar? What makes you so sure that autosexuality is an innate form of sexuality and not a result of trauma or porn exposure? I am not saying it should be demonized but I don't think it's a helpful framework and at this point I see no scientific evidence that it is valid. I am just afraid some parents will accept that their sons are naturally autosexual the way some parents accepted that their sons were "born in the wrong body" and not get proper help as a result.
You don't seem to allow the possibility that there might be gender dysphorics who have no psychological motivation other than the neurodevelopmental mismatches which they have internally. Such people might not take kindly to people who poke their noses into our psyches claiming that we are morally bad people and that you know why and what we should have done, despite the fact that you have never met us.
A senior Professor of PsychoBiology recently told me 'Of course I agree with you' after reading my book The War on Gender ~ Postmodernism and Trans Identity, in which I take this apart from a perspective combing personal experience and scholarship.
I was a "ROGD boy" (i.e. autogynephilic). While at first I found the theory of "ROGD boys" interesting, it quickly became apparent that counsellors only believed they were observing something new, as they understood autogynephilia in terms of a caricature. Indeed, they even illustrated their own writing on the topic of autogynephilia with a somewhat obscene cartoon. [1]
It is very strange to see how parents and counsellors are tying themselves in knots over this issue, rather than see the obvious, that, of course, the boys who would be most affected by an ideology that says you can have the "gender identity" of the opposite sex, will be those who have a propensity for experiencing issues of cross-sex identity, i.e. be those boys who are autogynephilic.
However while it is strange, it is also understandable. If one only understands autogynephilia in terms of a caricature, that has been created as part of a political movement to try and flip "trans" from being the oppressed into the oppressor, then of course one will think one has discovered something new.
However this misconceptualisation remains frustrating, given the deluge of boys posting on social media forums like reddit, describing autogynephilia, and being told they have the "gender identity" of the opposite sex. You cannot realistically expect boys to come out with "I have autogynephilia, which is conceived of as an erotic-target location error", [2] yet they describe experiencing it nonetheless.
[1] Dr Blanchard shared my article on this topic in 2023.
It is also worth considering that even if one accepts "ROGD boys", then this will be in addition to "AGP boys". It was bewildering to see such counsellors caricaturing the very boys they purport to help.
Interesting article, thanks. But how could you know this is true?:
"The reality is straight men and boys are falling victim to this medical abuse in far greater numbers than gay men and boys."
There can't be any real evidence for that one way or the other, because those who could possibly gather the evidence would never accept your definitions--right?
Aaron, this is a good introductory piece. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Yes, "ROGD boys" are typically "AGP boys", and people need to start waking up to this obvious fact.
Sorry that there are so many commenters seemingly hellbent on imposing their misunderstanding of autogynephilia onto others.
This is really clear and well-written for the lay reader, nice job!
I 100% agree about midlife adult transitioners. I disagree that adult AGPs are victims in any meaningful sense. As boys, maybe, if they haven't been mindfucking too many people yet.
It’s gonna take more to convince me that AGPs whose outward attractions are mainly to men belong in the same group as those whose outward attractions are mainly to women. But I think you are adding a contribution to the body of research, I hope you are able to validate it with sound science and statistics and publish it at some point.
It's sad to see that young males believe masculinity to be "emotionally closed/inauthentic." Messages about "toxic masculinity" are most likely contributing to that.
I can't keep up with some of it these days but feminists abusing masculinity can't help. I see comments that 'Men are obsolete'. Tell you what, when I see a gang of feminists coming round on a Tuesday morning emptying my bins, I concede. But we are a long way past the male chauvinist attitudes of the '70s!
Gang of misogynists here
Yes, all is women fault dear misogynist
Actually, I blame Foucault and Butler.
I find the extreme certainty that people like the author of this piece have with this issue confusing. The fact is that this cohort of ROGD teen boys is a very new cohort and there is no comprehensive data or research on these boys. It seems likely there is some percentage of these ROGD boys with AGP, but we 1) absolutely have no reliable data to tell us if this number is 25%, 50%, 75% or whatever, 2) if how teen boys experience AGP is different from that of older males, or 3) have any proof of whether or not the current fentanyl-intensity levels of online porn access and content has different effects on developing brains than what teens were exposed to in pre-internet times. We also don't know if all the observational and anecdotal evidence cited by the author and others with similar views is looking at a representative sample of teen boys. Not all ROGD boys are in the spotlight discussing their experiences or showing up in therapist offices and gender clinics to be observed in this way. Are those boys somehow different and more likely to have AGP traits?
Of course, the author (and those in his camp) could be 100% right about all this, but the data and research aren't there to insist on this explanation with the insistence and certainty that's being done here and in other places. Just like we don't know the real numbers on detransition rates, we don't know the real numbers here. I feel like holding this opinion so tightly, assuming all the old research on AGP and porn still applies, and insisting there's no other way to look at it is just as misguided as insisting the regret rate is still 1%.
"I feel like holding this opinion so tightly, assuming all the old research on AGP and porn still applies..."
I came to this conclusion after a lot of research and reading/listening to different dysphoric males' experiences- the vast majority of which are written anonymously online. I initially believed the social contagion model or something else impacting the boys. But the more I dug, the clearer it got it's almost all AGP.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond in a good faith way. If I may push back just a bit, the following point from your response gets directly at one of the points I'm trying to make:
"I came to this conclusion after a lot of research and reading/listening to different dysphoric males' experiences- the vast majority of which are written anonymously online."
When you are doing research you have to consider the sample you are getting your data from and whether there is some kind of self-selection bias (for example, who is signing up for the research study or showing up in the doctors office or clinic). The researcher also has to consider his sampling methods. In this case you are saying that your sample is coming from males who are willing to talk openly about their experiences, and as you described "the vast majority" being online and anonymous talking about their experiences. There is no way to verify online anonymous narratives (this is why anecdotal and case study reports are considered much lower on the pyramid of research quality). Also there is a self-selection bias happening for the type of person who goes online to talk about such personal experiences. These factors are just basic things that a person must consider when they are doing research, no matter what field or topic their research is happening in.
As I said, I'm not arguing that there are not AGP males in the ROGD cohort. I'm pretty sure there are although I will make no gas at what those numbers are. What I'm saying is that we don't have the data to make any definitive or conclusive statements about how many boys this applies to, if this current manifestation of AGP traits is the same as what is seen in adults (as an analogy, comparing borderline personality traits and symptoms and how they evolve and adolescents versus young adulthood versus middle-age), or if there are other pathways boys take into ROGD that are not as obvious and attention grabbing as the AGP males. We don't need to be doing the same kind of bad research practices that we are trying to counter being done by researchers like Turban and Tordoff. Jesse Singal's and Leor Sapir's excellent critiques of poor research methodologies apply to us too.
I am familiar with the concept of selection bias. But this is not a scientific study. It is the conclusion I came to from reading countless accounts of MtF(tM)'s experiences. The data collected from clinical records is close to useless on this population because the culture tells them to lie to clinicians. The best way to actually understand their experiences is to listen to what they're saying when there are no stakes (anon online) and what the community consensus is to those feelings. From all my time doing so, I have not found a 3rd type of GD in males.
Not only selection bias but confirmation bias.
What we are not able to do with all these males in those populations is to question them.
Once something is named and classified, people will start looking for those symptoms when in fact their memory may not be reliable. They have recall bias. This is no different with other populations such as those with psychosomatic disorders.
Great points, could not have said it better. For me the biggest gap in the article was that "pseudobisexuality" section like:
are bisexuals a legit thing in the author's mind or not? If they aren't, why is this stuff callet LGBT Courage Coalition and not LGT? What's the B doing there? is it standig for Bullsh*tters? Bilinguals? Bakers? is it just performative empty inclusion??
If on contrary genuine bisexuals are a thing in the authors mind, are they inherently immune to gender dysphoria?? If they are, why is that not being studied? And if they aren't, how can the author (no, anybody!) square that with saying there is only two types of male dysphorics: AGPs who are all straight/gynephilic and HSTS who are all homosexual/androphilic???
We must see "sexuality as a spectrum" the author says, but the ambiphilics are mysteriously missing from the picture.
But you must take this article as jus fact. Yeah, not buying it.
Bisexual behavior exists, including in male AGPs. The etiology of the behavior, as in whether or not its really equal attraction to male and female bodies, is up for debate.
I was an "ROGD boy", the answer is AGP. I know myself and the condition I've grappled with.
This is an opinion piece and should be framed as such. Just because you have been studying these boys and talking to clinicians doesn't mean you discovered the truth. Where is the proof? Where is the proof that "attraction direction" is something innate (or even a thing)? Where is the proof that porn doesn't cause dysphoria in boys? If you have no data, then this is just an opinion. Downplaying the effect of porn seems irresponsible, tbh.
It lines up with what experts who have dealt with this population have been saying from their observations, work with the population, study, research and writing for well over a hundred years. Blanchard specifically, from the 1980s coined the term Autogynephilia, of AGP for short, but it built on the work of many proceeding him. Start with this: https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/. Start reading through the sources and keep going.
Autogynephilia is a model which excludes the known neurological factors which have been identified by researchers such as Ramachandran, Zhou and Diamond.
Pseudotranssexualism was a phenomenon known in the 1970s. To accuse all transsexuals of AGP is grossly insulting and a claim made without evidence.
Blanchard didn’t lump all transsexuals into AGP. Zhou’s identification of the BSNT was shown to only become sexually dimorphic in adulthood, so it’s irrelevant to HSTS. Ramachardran also isn’t reproducible and his mirror theory doesn’t show any causation and even correlation. Diamond, the twins studies are also correlation not causation and there is confounding problems with the evidence.
To say 'Correlation is not causation' is misleading. It is strong evidence for an organic cause shared in utero.
Ramachandran is eminently reproducible since there are countless transsexuals going in both directions who have had the sense of phantom morphology.
As to Zhou, So you really expect to be able to find a specific brain structure that accounts for all of the experiences?
It's all indicative. I'm not claiming it's definitive.
Leaving a comment here for reference of the researchers 😇
We all know it's just the author's opinion.
She has her biases like everyone else. I would guess that she shies away from the porn issue because it hits a little too close to home, lol. But on the rest her reasoning is mostly sound, though I agree that lack of evidence is an issue and she lets AGPs off the hook too easily.
I mean, it is, but I don't think it makes it less valuable nonetheless. I'm on Substack specifically to read diverse opinions, including some I don't 100% agree with (unlike back in my TRA echo chamber days lol). I never heard of these sexology terms before, for example, and I think it is a valuable knowledge (which I think could be used in the aro/ace discourses as well for example) and I personally never really read much nuances in regards to heterosexual agps. Everything is to take with a grain of salt (including official studies which can be heavily biased or have a very small sample or have specific wordings in questions) and I try to learn what I can everywhere :). I'm not idolising the author (who is flawed like the rest of us and other activists), I just think it was quite an interesting read, with quality explanations about things I didn't know about and overall I'm going to bed knowing a bit more because of it and I think that's the essential ;)
“Let’s AGPs off the hook to easy.” What does this mean?
It means no AGP is harmless, because they suffer from an inherently narcissistic condition, and they are male, with all the privileges that brings. They are a psychological hazard to any women they become involved with, since the more confident they become, the greater the chance that their illness takes over their life, at which point their loving partner is SOL and in the midst of a nightmare.
Sorry, but that reads like a lot of hyperbolic over generalizations and woke nonsense.
It feels like it’s coming time for us to have a full professional conference on this topic as clinicians working in this space are starting to see more of these teen and young adult boys. I am also wondering if there is a parallel to this phenomenon in adolescent girls who believe they are gay boys and want to date cisgender gay boys.
Agreed! As for your interrogation, my 2cts is that it's different for girls, because it's more a way for them to escape gender oppression and incentives to be feminine. They may also perceive gay men as "safer" than straight men. There is also a very real fujoshi (girls fetichizing gay men in medias and often irl as a result) to ftm pipeline.
Thank you for sharing your views on this important issue. It really helped me understand my son more and his motivations. Thank god somebody is finally starting to figure these kids out! I just hope it helps them to understand themselves before they do irreversible harm to their bodies.
I don't agree with everything here, and I think this also downplay a bit the impact of porn/hentai in this, but this is genuinely an amazing piece that you wrote and I really liked reading it! Thank you so much for sharing! This is, at the very least, very interesting food for thoughts to bring some nuances to this and it seems quite insightful overall. You also did a very good job at making this piece accessible to the average reader, it was very clear. Take care!
"There is no incentive to repress anymore"
This statement frames the agp narrative in terms of adults who come out as "trans". These adults often claim the reason they became trans as adults is that prior to that they were "repressed". hmm OK. sure dude.
- everyone is repressed all the time. even billionaires cant do everything they imagine every moment.
- agp isnt only a sexual experience. agp people know theyre hetro. if you look at agp porn you will see the models of attraction are women. 100% of them. choosing to ID as "trans" is something different.
- young men who ID as "trans" are rational people. they are weighting the pros and cons. becuase the gender industry has been promoting misinformation about the benefits of "trans" for 20 years, most young people who ID as trans now are simply victims of a big biz misinformation campaign. this fact supercedes the idea that increases in agp Trans ID are due to some kind of western acceptance. if you speak or chat with any of these young people you will find all of them repeat gender industry lies like mindless robots. they think gender meds will improve their lives (it wont), they think gender meds make suicide go down (nope) . they think "trans" will solve every problem they ever had (it wont). life is tough. telling young adults all their problems will be solved by "trans" is a deceptive lie but too soothing an idea for many to resist.
agp issues often have nothing to do with sexuality. they are lifestyle and life problem issues as well.
when attempting to attribute agp trans to sexuality one should consider the fact that most kids grow out of gender dysphoria with puberty, unless given gender meds. sexuality, including agp sexuality, occurs after puberty, at which point most gender dysphoria is resolved. a 20 year old who thinks they are agp trans likely doesnt have any gender dysphoria. what hes attracted to isnt the primarily idea of becoming a women. hes looking for an alternative to his perception of life's constraints. hes not being repressed by agp. hes being repressed by his own imagination that primarily incl.udes the same problems anyone has. its not easy being a young person today. the gender biz has offered them an out. as in pinocchio, they offer "come to pleasure island. eat the magic treats." its not an alternative to their gender. its an alternative to every day life.
There's a lot of truth here. Well said.
I agree some young men choose trans as an escape. I doubt that the AGP aspect is a choice though. Sissy porn can really magnify the tendency but I think there has to be some kernel of AGP there to begin with.
And what's the source(s) of that? I hope a researcher/clinician is trying to answer that question. I would speculate that Blanchard et al have plenty of theories that they are currently keeping to themselves.
Certainly a strong fixation on a narcissist mother is one candidate pathway. The articles in PITT are chock-full of narcissist parents, for example.
Mothers who openly wish they had a daughter instead of a son is another. Most of them are probably narcissists also.
Sexual abuse? Certainly possible, I could see a pathway with either parent. It's not a coincidence that there is somewhat of a correlation between AGP and other paraphilias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology
I am a parent and a reader of PITT. I do not see mothers who openly wish they had a daughter instead of a son. Nor do I see the narcissistic mothers. What I see are mothers who are in a very difficult situation trying to get their kid out of the cult but swimming against social media and the zeitgeist right now. And we are being vilified for not transing out kid if underage or not affirming if over 18. We are told we are transphobes and worse. We are hurting for many reasons and after all, we are just humans trying to do our best.
Thank you for your example, I think it illustrates what I’m talking about.
I agree it’s a horrible place for a parent to be in, I’m right there with you.
When we are trying to figure out causes, we have to set aside our defensiveness and try our best to look at things objectively.
I don't understand what you are saying - do you think my comment was narcissistic?
Really? You don't understand what "I agree it’s a horrible place for a parent to be in, I’m right there with you." means, for example?
You seem only interested, out of all the things that I'm saying, in the bits that could possibly, potentially reflect negatively on you. That's an indicator for hyper-defensiveness.
When we talk about the potential causes for mental illness which onset is in childhood or adolescence, there is naturally a potential for there to be a negative light shone on the parents. That's unavoidable.
If you are unable to tolerate that, it's going to be difficult for you to participate constructively in the discussion.
But if you're genuinely asking out of curiosity and desire for self-awareness whether I think your comments reflect a narcissist personality, I would say yes, as far as they go. Narcissists do tend to make everything about themselves, and are unable to tolerate even the slightest bit of criticism even if only potentially implied.
Really Hazel-rah? You seem to be focused only on YOUR interpretation of what you are reading on PITT. Your piece today saying that you wished your mother would have reacted differently illustrates that you do not see other ways of parenting and it's the only way. Families, parents and children are not perfect, but your insinuation that a child's mental illness is because of a parent is misguided. It MAY be true, but it also may not be true.
I pointed out that your statement about mothers wanting daughters instead of sons or are narcissistic is painting the mothers with a broad brush. I asked for clarification in your specific response to me in the case I didn't understand it as you meant it. And now you are reacting this way. You may view my comment as hyper-defensiveness, but it's not. It's how we communicate with others to let them know there are other alternative view points.
having an agp fetish isnt a choice. but presenting as "trans" is. one may not be able to choose if they prefer chocolate or heroin or baseball, those are preferences and hobbies. so is "trans". while in any workplace, one wouldnt be able to eat chocolate all the time, partake in recreational drugs or alcohol or wear sports fan clothing while on the job. thats becuase everyone recognizes these are choices. presenting as "trans" is a similar choice. the same stats and studys that are used to claim trans ID isnt a choice would similarly claim other hobbies arent a choice. its simply not true.
the gender industry supposes that gender presentation is arbitrary and one gender presentation is an good as the next. that maybe true if one doesnt consider gender affirmation with all its harmful interventions and rights conflicts with title 9 groups. gender meds trap vulnerable people into a life of misery. yet its claimed these meds provide the opposite. promoters of gender meds claim without evidence that these meds solve multiple issues, such as gender dysphoria, depression, social issues. yet, every gov systematic review on earth found gender meds dont help any of these things in youth. ergo, big biz is fraudulently luring vulnerable people into a harmful fraud.
theres a 1000 reasons why ppl ID as trans. this link gives a list of examples in girls.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1587566678858256394.html
but if people knew what a harmful fraud gender affirmation is, including how gender meds lead to significant misery, i doubt as many people would be duped into this terrible mistake
This comment doesn't actually sound like you're disagreeing with the article, but rather that you didn't read it. You took a quote from it, but how you used it suggests you didn't read where I explained why they are the same cohort. Again, fine if you disagree with that, but you're not disagreeing with what I actually wrote.
"agp isnt only a sexual experience. agp people know theyre hetro. if you look at agp porn you will see the models of attraction are women. 100% of them. choosing to ID as "trans" is something different."
AGPs know they like women and that they want to be women. However, a lot of them confuse their meta attraction to be genuine attraction and believe themselves to be androphilic. But yes it all starts as gynephilia, so I agree with your 100% claim. I also agree that choosing to ID as trans or to transition is a choice.
"young men who ID as "trans" are rational people. they are weighting the pros and cons. becuase the gender industry has been promoting misinformation about the benefits of "trans" for 20 years, most young people who ID as trans now are simply victims of a big biz misinformation campaign. this fact supercedes the idea that increases in agp Trans ID are due to some kind of western acceptance. if you speak or chat with any of these young people you will find all of them repeat gender industry lies like mindless robots. they think gender meds will improve their lives (it wont), they think gender meds make suicide go down (nope) . they think "trans" will solve every problem they ever had (it wont). life is tough. telling young adults all their problems will be solved by "trans" is a deceptive lie but too soothing an idea for many to resist."
But you're ignoring the root motivation that brings them to the trans spaces to absorb this propaganda, which is AGP. Again, I've been looking for a long time and have not found another source.
"agp issues often have nothing to do with sexuality. they are lifestyle and life problem issues as well."
If you had read the article you would know that AGP is a 'misfiring' sexuality. I don't know what you're referring to as AGP in this sentence, but typically AGP plus other 'lifestyle and life problems/issues', along with propaganda you previously mentioned, are what lead a young man to believe transition is his only solution.
"when attempting to attribute agp trans to sexuality one should consider the fact that most kids grow out of gender dysphoria with puberty, unless given gender meds. sexuality, including agp sexuality, occurs after puberty, at which point most gender dysphoria is resolved. a 20 year old who thinks they are agp trans likely doesnt have any gender dysphoria."
Most kids do outgrow dysphoria with puberty, because virtually all the kids with dysphoria prior to the onset of puberty grow up to be gay. Boys who's dypshoria *begins* with puberty are AGP. They won't outgrow it. They need to understand what it is, absent that pleasure island stuff you mentioned.
I agree with you about the propaganda, but everything else you've said demonstrates a lack of understanding what AGP is and therefore why these kids are so vulnerable to that propaganda.
OK, you got me. i didn't read the entire article. but i read a lot of it. im with you for the first part. but most of the rest is filled with speculation which imo, is wide of the mark.
"social media and porn are playing a much greater role in enabling and sustaining their self-directed sexuality than would be possible without them."
here you seem to acknowledge the truth about AGP. AGP sexuality is a fetish. and due the internet, fetishes are more widely available. Porn and fetishes function in a similar way as do drugs and alcohol. why do more people drink alcohol than take heroin? because heroin is difficult use and difficult to access. random needles are not widely available. preparing heroin, cooking it in a spoon, is a skill most people dont have. so most buy alcohol and dont take heroin. its just easier. Now theres an intoxicant even easier to get than beer. its porn. if you know anyone whose had a severe addiction, and tried to talk them out of it, they say things exactly like the people who claim they are "trans". they defend their addiction at all cost. above all else. they routinely severe long standing relationships to maintain their habit. and their fellow addicts and peer group legitimize their habit(s). this is nothing new. Google says 75% of adults have a fetish and 63% drink alcohol. when does a mild habit become an addiction? its when it negatively affects other areas of one's life. certainly those who engage in gac are affected by it in the same way as those with any other addiction.
agp sexualty is a high like a shot of whiskey. or like heroin. thats all it is. im convinced that, like me, 99% of people with agp fetish dont have any gender dysphoria and lead their lives conforming to their gender and sex with out anyone knowing, possibly not even their wives and partners. the first thing people with fetishes learn is that most other people dont enjoy their same fetish. rather they are more likely to hate their fetish. and thats OK. fetishes arent for everyone and rarely add anything good to a relationship.
being agp "trans" is more than that. to make agp sexuality a lifestyle choice via "trans" is like someone saying theyre going to shoot heroin 5X a day, and thats just how theyre going to live their life.
when their family and work relationships and performance suffer, they are often the last to attribute these effects to their addiction.
addictions and "trans" displace many of the things most adults find leads to happiness.
"but you're ignoring the root motivation that brings them to the trans spaces to absorb this propaganda, which is AGP. Again, I've been looking for a long time and have not found another source."
i think this is the part most people miss because they dont understand what its like to be a young man or a young men who is an alcoholic or drug addict or porn addict. even addiction experts dont understand the "why" of what youre referring. a short answer would be - its to escape their own uncomfortable reality.
we know addiction is a disease that ruins peoples lives. and so does "trans" if addressed with gender affirmat. theres just no evidence gender affirmation helps anyone, even if it helped you, that by itself isnt evidence in a medical sense.
there also isnt evidence of the other things you write.
but we dont have to know the answer to every question.
the big questions have all been answered.
- everyone knows kids need to use less social media.
- everyone knows there are kooks and groomers on social media with all sorts of kooky ideas.
- most people are now aware gac doesnt work and leads to severe suffering and offers no benefit.
- most people are now aware that gender ideology harms and robs the rights of women, kids, gays, people with psych issues etc.
you claim "the progressive West... glorifies being transgender, or “queer,” and asserts there is no greater villain than the straight, white man".
what would you know about what the "progressive left?" thinks? have you condered your out of touch?
what youre ascribing to cultural forces is really just an astro turf campaign to infect people with gender ideology. the only reason gender ideology has gained a foot hold is that most people dont know about it, or if they do, they know very little.
So what about those boys who had severe dysphoria from the earliest memory but didn't grow out of it at puberty? Particularly such boys who had this experience many years before social influences had anything to do with it?
What is your methodology?
This is not a scientific study. It is the conclusion I came to from reading countless reports of MtF(tM)'s experiences and observing the community consensus is to those reports.
So not even a content analysis? Why not? How many is "countless?"
But what about the countless experiences of those of us who do not fit your narrative?
Why is this woman (Terell) commenting on ROGD boys? She’s not a man, a clinician, a licensed professional counselor, and not a researcher. Terrell has a weird obsession with the boys. We are so tired of hearing her talk about the “AGP boys”.
Let’s hear what clinicians who are in the trenches seeing boys have to say about this. Drs Az Hakeem, Dr Joe Burgo, Dr Susan Bradley have actual credentials and they disagree with the idea that heterosexual boys are all AGP. Why don’t you interview them? They can give an educated report not just an opinion born out of a fixation on this topic.
Susan Bradley: https://podbay.fm/p/the-dr-debra-soh-podcast/e/1652208954. The 24 minute mark, talks about the boys and the connection to AGP and ASD. Basically what Aaron is reporting that Dr. Hakeem say s about AGP and ASD.
Episode 44. Try this link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dr-debra-soh-podcast/id1560925652?i=1000560358255
Wow! I don’t think I’ve heard that before. Can you tell me what this podcast is? The link doesn’t work for me.
The Dr Debra Soh podcast. I will try to fix the link.
Susan Bradley and Kenneth Zucker: https://focus.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/foc.3.4.598. “The last type of psychosexual problem is, as far as we know, the exclusive domain of adolescent males: cross-dressing associated with sexual arousal. As noted earlier, the extent of the cross-dressing varies and there is no problem, in principle, in employing the diagnosis of transvestic fetishism. As noted with adults with transvestic fetishism, a heterosexual orientation predominates. A history of GID is not part of the clinical picture, although some of these boys think about sex-reassignment surgery and are at risk for GID. Although the clinical course of GID in males with a history of transvestic fetishism seems to develop more slowly than does GID in males who are sexually attracted to other biological males (Blanchard 1994; Blanchard et al. 1987), there is now considerable clinical evidence to suggest that even among adolescents with transvestic fetishism the presence of autogynephilic feelings can be substantial, thus resulting in rather intense gender dysphoria, leading to the desire for sex-reassignment surgery.”
Dr. Hakeem has said all his patients were autistic and AGP (though he calls only anatomical AGP “AGP”, the rest he classifies as various kinds of transvestism)
Dr. Hakeem was referring to his old cohort of patients. His new book Detrans doesn't say that. He makes a difference with the new cohort of young males. BTW, you have misrepresented what Dr. Burgo has said. He has not changed at all from his stance regarding the ROGD boy who is NOT AGP.
If you're tired of hearing Aaron talk about the "AGP boys", why did you supposedly read this article and comment on it?
Aaron has put far more effort into understanding autogynephilia than all the people kvetching in these comments. That matters far more than what sex he is. I think it's smart and appropriate that he has taken an interest in learning about autogynephilia, as it is the largest driver of gender ideology and MTF gender transition.
She's commenting because it's her right to comment.
It's your right to refute her arguments. But you're getting a bit too close to trying to shut her down. Bad look. That's what the TRAs do.
Dr. Az Hakeem: https://youtu.be/No1ux09kPwY?si=jTuSeHYTZwUrVFGo, 8 minute mark. Trans (gender dysphoria) is not one thing. You might also be interested in Blanchard and Bailey’s take that also lines up with this: https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/.
It’s interesting that someone who was never a boy or has a boy child or a clinician thinks they are an expert on boys. My son desisted from being trans identified, he says he was just rebelling and it’s just a subculture. I know several parents whose boys have desisted, and describe it the same way. Please stop discussing our boys and boy parents with information you are not an expert on.
Here’s a similar piece written by a man
https://since2010.substack.com/p/part-7-rogd-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria?utm_medium=web
A man who wants to normalize their experience. It does not mean it’s every boys experience. Please stop writing about this topic. You are not helping anyone except the ones with a fetish.
I'm (Orlando) the person who wrote the piece. I don't know what you mean by "normalising".
I can see the harm of "gender identity" ideology, and would like it being stopped being taught as a matter of fact to children. I have put what I would like see happen here:
https://transpolicy.substack.com/p/trans-memo
Yyeeeaahhh, I'll take your word for it that you see some harm, but you sure don't appear to grasp the emotional component. And if you can take that feminist-hating BS somewhere else, that would be great.
Yikes, the author of that piece betrays a profound lack of appreciation for the extent and depth of trauma that has been caused by the gaslighting and bullying of autogynephiles. They are the leaders of a cult that has destroyed or damaged countless lives, families, careers and bodies, and has compromised the fundamental integrity of entire professions and industries.
The opposition to AGPs isn't "ideological". It's visceral. And blaming it on feminists as much as he does is ignorant and offensive. Hey Orlando (yes I know you're in here), it's mostly women complaining because it's mostly women and the children they care for who've been harmed, numbnuts.
I’m a parent who lost a kid to this too. I understand the pain and anger. However, I think you are scapegoating. This isn’t one person nor a group of people’s fault and failing to acknowledge that will only further the problems. These are complex issues, that demand nuance and understanding. If we want to help our kids, reducing them to victims and trying to solve their complex issues with simple solutions isn’t going to do it. Beating up caricatures isn’t going to help them. For my kid it was a combination of a lot of things that got them to a trans identity. They took all of their problems and funneled them into a simple solution, called trans. Let’s not do those same thing.
That's like saying "You can't blame all of Scientology's toxic and harmful effects on David Miscavige."
Yes, you actually CAN blame a lot of a cult's harmful activities on the leaders of the cult. That's not to say that their minions are blameless; every adult is fully responsible for their choices. But to quibble over how much of the blame the leaders get is an attempt to distract and deflect.
You are being WAY too defensive of AGPs, why - because your kid is now one of them, or perhaps involved with one? Don't worry - we all want to help people get out of the cult. But trivializing the harm that the cult has caused is not part of a successful strategy.
The opposition to men with autogynephilia who support "gender identity" ideology, is not ideological. However the caricaturing of autogynephilia is a continuation of the ideology that views society in terms of the oppressor vs. oppressed.
It is not possible to criticise the current trans movement, without criticising the feminist movement before it.
The feminist movement provided the social constructivist ideology that supports "trans": "“man” and “woman” are fictions, caricatures, cultural constructs” (Andrea Dworkin, 1974), "Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity", (Butler, 1990).
It also provided the political environment that allowed "trans" to flourish: the division of society into the oppressed vs. oppressor. with exemptions from the rule of law for those deemed as the oppressed, and cancellations for those deemed the oppressor.
The broad base of support for "gender identity" ideology comes from feminists who believe that they are fighting the "cis, heteronormative, patriarchy": [1] the "trans" issue split the feminist movement in two [2].
If one cannot criticise what led to gender identity ideology, then no effective challenge can be made against it.
[1] https://since2010.substack.com/p/part-3-gender-identity-and-feminism
[2] https://since2010.substack.com/p/autogynephilia-and-genspect-denver
^^And this is my friends is a classic example of progressive misogyny. Trying to blame all the post-WWII social constructivist BS that originated with narcissistic liberal men like Foucalt, on the feminist activists who have been fighting for their rights for well over 100 years. What garbage.
You're doing the same thing that right-wing men do, blaming feminists for everything that women do that you don't like, even if what they did has nothing to do with feminism.
How convenient - if women were only less uppity, they would never do anything we didn't like! So, everything they do is feminists' fault!
BS, my friend. Bull. Shit.
Strong women have NEVER fallen for trans ideology. They have fought it longer than anyone, whether they are radical feminists or clear-eyed conservatives.
The fact that so many liberal women have been successfully gaslit by narcissist autogynephilic men into being their foot soldiers is a testament to the male supremacy that society still suffers from, yes even liberal society. If it wasn't still all about teh menz, the AGPs would never have gotten this far.
I'll grant you this much – liberal women need to ask themselves some hard questions. The patriarchy is real but they are responsible for empowering themselves, and learning to be able to say "No" to members of their own tribe. Emphasizing their own victimhood can go too far and hold themselves back from empowerment.
If it were the case that your son or those other desisted sons are in fact autogynephilic, would you want to know the truth? Or would you prefer to hear a comforting social-constructionist narrative?
^^This is a good example of a typical AGP mindfucking attempt. He hits you with a piece of BS first then immediately skips to another piece of BS that distracts you from the first one. You're at risk of getting tongue-tied and confused trying to respond to multiple pieces of flying BS at once.
The key is not to respond to the specific content of what he's saying at all. 95% of the time that an AGP opens their mouth in public, they are trying to gaslight somebody. They do not mean well; you need not treat them with respect. It's more accurate to think of their words as an attempted assault than an attempt at communication.
If you want to respond, you only need listen enough to get a general sense so that you know how to shoot him down.
Like this: "Of course you think that everyone's sons are like you! So special."
Does this seem cruel? Oh no. AGPs are very, very toxic and psychologically dangerous people. We need not be concerned about their feelings in the slightest. They are obsessed, and will not give up until/unless they are demoralized.
More info here if you're interested:
https://bestfriendsandworstenemies.substack.com/p/its-not-about-the-science-the-evidence/
?
>He hits you with a piece of BS first then immediately skips to another piece of BS that distracts you from the first one. You're at risk of getting tongue-tied and confused trying to respond to multiple pieces of flying BS at once.
Ma'am, I sincerely apologize for overloading your cognitive capacity by writing two sentences instead of one.
Pretty weak comeback for an AGP. Come on, show us all that rage we know you're bottling up.
> Come on, show us all that rage we know you're bottling up.
This is a caricature.
Research and illustrations of autogynephilia can be found at Genspect:
https://genspect.org/the-truth-about-trans/
"This is a caricature". Lol. There are thousands of "caricatures" of AGPs out there; for some reason they all seem to share an indifference to the suffering of and hostility towards women, especially feminists. https://terfisaslur.com
Just like you showed in your article linked farther above by Terrell. Weird coincidence!
O'Malley's/Genspect's expertise and focus is on/with kids. She has been quite open about her lack of expertise on the behavior of adult autogynephiles especially towards women.
Your article that you linked just above does not address that topic at all. You know this, but offer it anyway, disingenuously. Bad look.
? Where is this coming from? You seem pretty upset.
^^People who don't like the message tend to attack the messenger.
Why don't you tell us what your issue is with the message?
You remember how frustrating and outrageous it is when trans activists shut people down and prevent them from speaking?
Don't be like them. You were fine up until the last sentence.
Thank you very much for destigmatizing the concept of autosexuality. I now know that people who've been calling me a narcissist all my life are just autophobic bigots. I can finally stop hiding in the closet and repressing my feelings. As an autosexual and autoromantic, I feel incredibly lucky to have met myself. I came and swept myself off my feet. I promise, I will be with myself till death does me part.
I look forward to reading your 900-page biography (autobiography, of course)!
AGP men might struggle understanding the sarcasm. After all, "Thus began my first true romance--with myself" seems to be a part of their lingo. Quote from here: https://reduxx.info/nz-prominent-trans-activist-and-gender-equity-advisor-sharing-fetish-content-on-social-media/
Why do you think trying to understand psychosexual phenomena equals endorsing or encouraging that phenomena?
It's been clear to me for a long time that the way to end gender ideology is to shine a light on the root psychological motivations that are causing people to adopt that ideology. That is how we blow through the smoke and mirrors that is 'gender identity'. If you have a better solution, I'm all ears.
In your essay you write "We must also conceptualize it in terms of direction: allo or auto. And just like how people can experience target sexuality on a spectrum, with andro on one end and gyno on the other, some also experience the direction of their sexuality on a spectrum, with auto on one end and allo on the other. " This way of describing shows normalizing of autosexuality, like it's just another spectrum such as heterosexual - homosexual. Normalizing is pretty much endorsing. Even if there are rare people who are only attracted to themselves, it doesn't put such attraction (which cannot bring a loving meaningful relationship) on some type of "it's all good" spectrum. With a spectrum, where do you draw the line if not all of it is normal? (By normal I mean healthy and not harmful to the person who experiences it or those around). For example, just because there are people who are sexually attracted to kids , we don't create an age attraction spectrum ranging from pedophiles to gerantrophiles , with same age attraction in the middle. No, I don't have a solution, so my opinion is not worth much but I am pretty sure the solution is not in normalization. Admitting the problem would be the starting point as with any problem.
I don't understand the charge of 'normalization'. I'm not concerned with what is 'normal'. I'm concerned with what simply IS. Bad, good, normal, abnormal... It's all irrelevant to what is true.
Murder is objectively bad. I think everyone can at least agree there. Understanding the psychology of people who commit murder is not 'normalizing' it.
To address your example, if plotting pedophilia on a spectrum helped people understand the phenomenon and prevent child abuse, I'd plot that on a spectrum too. But pedophilia doesn't work that way. (pedophiles are typically locked on a certain age range, the age range at which they stopped cognitively maturing themselves.)
AGP is. It exists. Regardless of how we feel about that. And I believe people need to understand it in order 1) combat the ideology that enables it's current course of circumventing women and girls rights and safety and 2) actually help boys and young men who have it. If you think not understanding it and/or only speaking about it in demonizing language will better achieve those two goals, have at it! I think that's counterproductive, but you do you. I'll keep doing it my way.
that's the thing...understanding the psychology of murder is not normalizing it, but labeling kids "murderers" if they share some of the psychological elements of adult murderers and then telling them that they were born this way, while also implying that environmental factors are not at play, is grotesque.
We need to be concerned with what is normal in order to help those who do something that is not. If a young man is assured that he is just an AGP and that is innate, normal, part of another sexuality spectrum, isn't there a pretty big risk that he will internalize such a message and make no effort to change? Won't he be likely to escalate? If we consider autosexuality to be normal and "just born that way", then any therapy to address it will become "conversion therapy" , sounds familiar? What makes you so sure that autosexuality is an innate form of sexuality and not a result of trauma or porn exposure? I am not saying it should be demonized but I don't think it's a helpful framework and at this point I see no scientific evidence that it is valid. I am just afraid some parents will accept that their sons are naturally autosexual the way some parents accepted that their sons were "born in the wrong body" and not get proper help as a result.
You don't seem to allow the possibility that there might be gender dysphorics who have no psychological motivation other than the neurodevelopmental mismatches which they have internally. Such people might not take kindly to people who poke their noses into our psyches claiming that we are morally bad people and that you know why and what we should have done, despite the fact that you have never met us.
A senior Professor of PsychoBiology recently told me 'Of course I agree with you' after reading my book The War on Gender ~ Postmodernism and Trans Identity, in which I take this apart from a perspective combing personal experience and scholarship.
I was a "ROGD boy" (i.e. autogynephilic). While at first I found the theory of "ROGD boys" interesting, it quickly became apparent that counsellors only believed they were observing something new, as they understood autogynephilia in terms of a caricature. Indeed, they even illustrated their own writing on the topic of autogynephilia with a somewhat obscene cartoon. [1]
It is very strange to see how parents and counsellors are tying themselves in knots over this issue, rather than see the obvious, that, of course, the boys who would be most affected by an ideology that says you can have the "gender identity" of the opposite sex, will be those who have a propensity for experiencing issues of cross-sex identity, i.e. be those boys who are autogynephilic.
However while it is strange, it is also understandable. If one only understands autogynephilia in terms of a caricature, that has been created as part of a political movement to try and flip "trans" from being the oppressed into the oppressor, then of course one will think one has discovered something new.
However this misconceptualisation remains frustrating, given the deluge of boys posting on social media forums like reddit, describing autogynephilia, and being told they have the "gender identity" of the opposite sex. You cannot realistically expect boys to come out with "I have autogynephilia, which is conceived of as an erotic-target location error", [2] yet they describe experiencing it nonetheless.
[1] Dr Blanchard shared my article on this topic in 2023.
https://twitter.com/BlanchardPhD/status/1636362020994809856
It is also worth considering that even if one accepts "ROGD boys", then this will be in addition to "AGP boys". It was bewildering to see such counsellors caricaturing the very boys they purport to help.
[2] Although some do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG9jBXGPnxE
Interesting article, thanks. But how could you know this is true?:
"The reality is straight men and boys are falling victim to this medical abuse in far greater numbers than gay men and boys."
There can't be any real evidence for that one way or the other, because those who could possibly gather the evidence would never accept your definitions--right?
I know it's true by 1) having a deep understanding of AGP behaviors/experiences and 2) spending a lot of time in online spaces with MtF(tMs).
Aaron, this is a good introductory piece. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Yes, "ROGD boys" are typically "AGP boys", and people need to start waking up to this obvious fact.
Sorry that there are so many commenters seemingly hellbent on imposing their misunderstanding of autogynephilia onto others.
Edit to add further reading on AGP—
Intro to AGP: https://phililly.substack.com/p/autogynephilia-agp-love-of-self-as-woman
Social/Interpersonal AGP (this includes meta-attraction): https://phililly.substack.com/p/interpersonal-autogynephilia
This is really clear and well-written for the lay reader, nice job!
I 100% agree about midlife adult transitioners. I disagree that adult AGPs are victims in any meaningful sense. As boys, maybe, if they haven't been mindfucking too many people yet.
It’s gonna take more to convince me that AGPs whose outward attractions are mainly to men belong in the same group as those whose outward attractions are mainly to women. But I think you are adding a contribution to the body of research, I hope you are able to validate it with sound science and statistics and publish it at some point.
https://open.substack.com/pub/pitt/p/rogd-agp-mothers-and-sonscommon-sense?r=ec3y&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post