"And, technically, [Thomas] was allowed to. [He]'d followed the rules."
The Nazis had all followed existing rules at the time, too, but that didn't stop us from meting out their proper retroactive punishment at Nuremberg.
May there one day be a Nuremberg for all the bureaucrats, politicians, butcher/doctors, and, most especially, billionaire funders who've pushed predatory transgenderism behind our collective backs.
.
As for athletes—In the case of Thomas and his ilk, their names should just be erased from the record books, with the names of the rightful Female winners elevated to their proper positions.
Where money prizes have been awarded, every penny should be clawed back from the male cheaters along with standard courthouse simple interest of 10% per annum, and the money should be returned to the Women who actually won it along with the same accrued interest.
It’s all so sad, and really hard to know how we are going to get out of this terrible place. Good for you all for going into the belly of the beast and reporting back.
Just one side-note: while I don’t want to make a “thing” out of this, I really did find the language confusing, causing me to have to stop several times to try and grasp who was male and who was female, which seemed particularly important to know in this context. It was, for me, an object lesson in what happens cognitively when what were once ordinary, commonly understood, terms become unmoored from stable meanings.
Bev Jackson, of the LGB Alliance, recently observed the following about how we use language in these situations. I thought it helpful, so I am quoting her here:
“Why did some of us use female pronouns for “transwomen” for several years before switching to “trans-identifying males” and then (in most cases) to “men”?
* For years, anyone who did not use “preferred pronouns” was liable to be permanently banned from this and other platforms. (On some platforms that still applies);
* Some of us believed large swathes of the population (well-meaning, not very well-informed, persuaded by the “be kind” mantra) would simply not listen to what we were saying otherwise.
All that has changed. People are better informed now. We need to avoid confusion and keep to plain speaking. Men are men.”
After viewing comments to that, she then followed up with this:
“I see some people deliberately missing the point. Yes, it was a strategic decision. And yes, strategies change according to context. Unless you don’t care about reaching the majority of well-meaning young people - and I obviously don’t mean the zealots here - who have been told, and who really think, that gender-critical people are hateful. So if I’m talking to young people like that I will avoid third-person pronouns altogether. And in some circumstances I may avoid saying “man” if I notice it stops them listening. My personal view - and you’re free to disagree - is that you can’t achieve social change unless you respond to social contexts.”
Thank you, Susan. I experienced the same confusion, and both you and I are pretty hip to the pronoun strategy that is designed to create that confusion.
So, just in case, it bears mentioning that Lia Thomas is William Thomas is a man is a he/him. Just like all other male mammals.
If Ms. Selin-Davis's trans-identified friends are gender critical to some extent, which they seem to be, and they know that she understands and cares about them, then nobody's feelings will be hurt if she tells the truth. In any event, the truth doesn't care about our feelings. Ongoing obfuscation does not help the gender-brainwashed eight year-olds or the female boxer who had her face punched in by a he/him at the Olympics.
Critiquing is not policing. I have no power to shut people up, nor would I if I could, because i believe that people have the right to say whatever they like, even if it offends me deeply. And in this case, I’m not even offended deeply.
My point remains the importance of clear and unambiguous language in order that others, especially those who know little or nothing about this issue, can easily understand who and what we’re talking about. Like you, I prefer trans-identified man or male, or Kara Dansky’s “a man claiming a woman identity.” It’s a bit more cumbersome, but it shines a light on the fundamentally spurious nature of gender ideology.
When I am writing about a trans person, I will not use preferred pronouns nor will I use their trans alias if the deadname is known. If I were diplomatic by nature, I'd have gone to work for the State Department. Since I write for sex realist audiences, any youngster who found his/her/their/zer way to one of my pieces would have encountered much more "hateful" content along the way than my penchant for deadnaming and misgendering.
Ugh. Thank you, Lisa, and your friends, for reporting back from this cringey event. I kept thinking of the young people I know who have been brainwashed by these very sick people and their ideology, and how appealing this must all be to them - the glorifying of the scars and mutilation, the camaraderie they experience in the victim identity. They can turn their negative energy of self-loathing and loneliness into a big old "F-YOU" toward family, "fat-phobic" medical professionals, and any person or institution that does not cosign their narcissism. I found it interesting in the slides you shared that they talked a lot about eating disorders. They are right, there is a lot of overlap, and this needs to be studied more. I get the feeling they are using ED's as the new suicide (emotional blackmail to force people to affirm or else...) - which can distract from more interesting questions - eg, why do you think "affirming" their desired gender identity is OK, while (I assume) you would not urge an anorexic to get liposuction? What if their body dysmorphia has found an accepted and even celebrated and paid-for-by-insurance and protected by law in California and Minnesota (thanks, Walz!) solution? Eating disorders are the most fatal of mental health disorders (aside from fentanyl overdoses), and as I looked at their slides, I was thinking, they are distorting the issue and their "solution" ("gender affirming care") is making it worse, as they are concretizing the problematic thought and behavioral patterns, not addressing the root suffering.
So did they ever talk about the Cass report or The American Academy of Plastic Surgeons statement? Refuting it or refusing to even acknowledge it? Do the average attendees even know this info exists? Would it matter?
And I wonder how the parents felt seeing the exhibits about sex work and kink healthcare. Would they affirm that for their child? Is there anything they would question or push back on?
Also the evil of telling parents and children that even the avoidance of pronouns can cause suicide. They are the ones creating the suicidal ideation in these young people. They are the ones violating everything known about actual suicide prevention.
Thanks for sharing what it was like to be there. And your last line was a good sum up: "The conference remained as insular and closed off as it encouraged its patrons to be."
Thanks for your report about the trans health meeting in Philadelphia. Can’t say I’m surprised by what you found/experienced. Reasonable examination of the “advice” offered there confirms as you say that weird is now normalized. Such folks are in a bubble I’m afraid.
This piece is notable because of what it said about Will Thomas, the man who who pretends to be a woman named Lia. I followed him and the controversy surrounding his crashing of collegiate women's competitive swimming. Doing that also let me see how the mainstream media treated Will and the controversy he created.
I'm not a sports fan, but one needn't follow sports to encounter what I consider the least attractive aspect of sports journalism today. That is reporters' obsession with covering athletes' lives outside the arena, especially if there's drama or the heroism of overcoming adversity in the athlete's biography.
In contrast, there was such a dearth of personal information about Will during his transgressive heyday that it was tempting to think the media were engaged in a tacit news blackout. Where, I wondered, was the coverage of the journey from Will to Lia? As personal interest stories go, that would have been a goldmine. Where were the interviews with Will's best friends who witnessed his transformation? Or with his family members who supported him during the tough times? I found myself wondering whether Will had ever really experienced dysmorphia or dysphoria. Did Will simply go to bed one night and wake up opportunistically as Lia the next day in order to increase his standing in his sport? Lacking facts, I reached no conclusions about either possibility.
And then came Will's keynote speech at Trans Joy in which he told all that could decently be said about his transformation from Will to Lia. There was big drama after all!
"Thomas detailed how her parents weren’t on board until they saw 1) how miserable she was trapped in a cis identity and 2) how happy she was once liberated from it—and possibly fully engaging in her autogynephilic delights. She’d initially thought she’d have to choose between transition and competitive swimming. She could have swum recreationally; transition and swum competitively in the male sex category with a hormonal disadvantage; or she could have it all: 'transition and swim competitively in the female sex category with a known advantage,' as my companion put it to me."
Why didn't the normally voyeuristic media tell the public about all this and more when Will was making headlines as Lia? Perhaps it was Will who decided to keep mum, not the media. In any case, I want to think that Lia was a two-dimensional character in the media when he was stealing titles from women because he or gatekeepers in the media decided that the public wasn't ready for a trans-eye view of the terrible alchemy by which men become women. It would not do, for example, for cishet audiences to hear about "those horrible days when Will had to change in the men’s locker room, feeling so exposed and uncomfortable and out of place." It's gross and the trans industrial complex doesn't want the public's mind going there. There's nothing rational about dysphoria or dysmorphia. The less said about that in the media the better.
More importantly, knowing too much about the facts and the calculus behind Will's decision to jump back into the pool as Lia might well have caused those who were merely casual trans allies to start thinking along heretical lines. You know, how "one big difference between trans women and women: the former don’t seem to realize that being a woman often means sacrificing, and not having control over your body and destiny." Or that “Thomas could have taken a step back, turned at the fork in the road, and started a tranny swim club to access and promote those benefits without putting anyone else out."
"And, technically, [Thomas] was allowed to. [He]'d followed the rules."
The Nazis had all followed existing rules at the time, too, but that didn't stop us from meting out their proper retroactive punishment at Nuremberg.
May there one day be a Nuremberg for all the bureaucrats, politicians, butcher/doctors, and, most especially, billionaire funders who've pushed predatory transgenderism behind our collective backs.
.
As for athletes—In the case of Thomas and his ilk, their names should just be erased from the record books, with the names of the rightful Female winners elevated to their proper positions.
Where money prizes have been awarded, every penny should be clawed back from the male cheaters along with standard courthouse simple interest of 10% per annum, and the money should be returned to the Women who actually won it along with the same accrued interest.
It’s all so sad, and really hard to know how we are going to get out of this terrible place. Good for you all for going into the belly of the beast and reporting back.
Just one side-note: while I don’t want to make a “thing” out of this, I really did find the language confusing, causing me to have to stop several times to try and grasp who was male and who was female, which seemed particularly important to know in this context. It was, for me, an object lesson in what happens cognitively when what were once ordinary, commonly understood, terms become unmoored from stable meanings.
Bev Jackson, of the LGB Alliance, recently observed the following about how we use language in these situations. I thought it helpful, so I am quoting her here:
“Why did some of us use female pronouns for “transwomen” for several years before switching to “trans-identifying males” and then (in most cases) to “men”?
* For years, anyone who did not use “preferred pronouns” was liable to be permanently banned from this and other platforms. (On some platforms that still applies);
* Some of us believed large swathes of the population (well-meaning, not very well-informed, persuaded by the “be kind” mantra) would simply not listen to what we were saying otherwise.
All that has changed. People are better informed now. We need to avoid confusion and keep to plain speaking. Men are men.”
After viewing comments to that, she then followed up with this:
“I see some people deliberately missing the point. Yes, it was a strategic decision. And yes, strategies change according to context. Unless you don’t care about reaching the majority of well-meaning young people - and I obviously don’t mean the zealots here - who have been told, and who really think, that gender-critical people are hateful. So if I’m talking to young people like that I will avoid third-person pronouns altogether. And in some circumstances I may avoid saying “man” if I notice it stops them listening. My personal view - and you’re free to disagree - is that you can’t achieve social change unless you respond to social contexts.”
Thank you, Susan. I experienced the same confusion, and both you and I are pretty hip to the pronoun strategy that is designed to create that confusion.
So, just in case, it bears mentioning that Lia Thomas is William Thomas is a man is a he/him. Just like all other male mammals.
If Ms. Selin-Davis's trans-identified friends are gender critical to some extent, which they seem to be, and they know that she understands and cares about them, then nobody's feelings will be hurt if she tells the truth. In any event, the truth doesn't care about our feelings. Ongoing obfuscation does not help the gender-brainwashed eight year-olds or the female boxer who had her face punched in by a he/him at the Olympics.
I definitely prefer trans-identified male for a man presenting as female. It's less confusing.
Lisa Selin Davis is a journalist, so she may be following journalism style guides here--or perhaps she thinks using preferred pronouns is considerate.
I don't use them--but I also don't police how others use them.
Critiquing is not policing. I have no power to shut people up, nor would I if I could, because i believe that people have the right to say whatever they like, even if it offends me deeply. And in this case, I’m not even offended deeply.
My point remains the importance of clear and unambiguous language in order that others, especially those who know little or nothing about this issue, can easily understand who and what we’re talking about. Like you, I prefer trans-identified man or male, or Kara Dansky’s “a man claiming a woman identity.” It’s a bit more cumbersome, but it shines a light on the fundamentally spurious nature of gender ideology.
Point taken, Beeswax.
My mistake to use "policing".
Yes, we are stuck with verbal gymnastics to counter gender ideology.
When I am writing about a trans person, I will not use preferred pronouns nor will I use their trans alias if the deadname is known. If I were diplomatic by nature, I'd have gone to work for the State Department. Since I write for sex realist audiences, any youngster who found his/her/their/zer way to one of my pieces would have encountered much more "hateful" content along the way than my penchant for deadnaming and misgendering.
"If I were diplomatic by nature, I'd have gone to work for the State Department."
Good one!
You'd also be spending 98% of your time lying about some public policy or other.
Ugh. Thank you, Lisa, and your friends, for reporting back from this cringey event. I kept thinking of the young people I know who have been brainwashed by these very sick people and their ideology, and how appealing this must all be to them - the glorifying of the scars and mutilation, the camaraderie they experience in the victim identity. They can turn their negative energy of self-loathing and loneliness into a big old "F-YOU" toward family, "fat-phobic" medical professionals, and any person or institution that does not cosign their narcissism. I found it interesting in the slides you shared that they talked a lot about eating disorders. They are right, there is a lot of overlap, and this needs to be studied more. I get the feeling they are using ED's as the new suicide (emotional blackmail to force people to affirm or else...) - which can distract from more interesting questions - eg, why do you think "affirming" their desired gender identity is OK, while (I assume) you would not urge an anorexic to get liposuction? What if their body dysmorphia has found an accepted and even celebrated and paid-for-by-insurance and protected by law in California and Minnesota (thanks, Walz!) solution? Eating disorders are the most fatal of mental health disorders (aside from fentanyl overdoses), and as I looked at their slides, I was thinking, they are distorting the issue and their "solution" ("gender affirming care") is making it worse, as they are concretizing the problematic thought and behavioral patterns, not addressing the root suffering.
So did they ever talk about the Cass report or The American Academy of Plastic Surgeons statement? Refuting it or refusing to even acknowledge it? Do the average attendees even know this info exists? Would it matter?
And I wonder how the parents felt seeing the exhibits about sex work and kink healthcare. Would they affirm that for their child? Is there anything they would question or push back on?
Also the evil of telling parents and children that even the avoidance of pronouns can cause suicide. They are the ones creating the suicidal ideation in these young people. They are the ones violating everything known about actual suicide prevention.
Thanks for sharing what it was like to be there. And your last line was a good sum up: "The conference remained as insular and closed off as it encouraged its patrons to be."
Thanks for your report about the trans health meeting in Philadelphia. Can’t say I’m surprised by what you found/experienced. Reasonable examination of the “advice” offered there confirms as you say that weird is now normalized. Such folks are in a bubble I’m afraid.
Let’s catch up soon.
This piece is notable because of what it said about Will Thomas, the man who who pretends to be a woman named Lia. I followed him and the controversy surrounding his crashing of collegiate women's competitive swimming. Doing that also let me see how the mainstream media treated Will and the controversy he created.
I'm not a sports fan, but one needn't follow sports to encounter what I consider the least attractive aspect of sports journalism today. That is reporters' obsession with covering athletes' lives outside the arena, especially if there's drama or the heroism of overcoming adversity in the athlete's biography.
In contrast, there was such a dearth of personal information about Will during his transgressive heyday that it was tempting to think the media were engaged in a tacit news blackout. Where, I wondered, was the coverage of the journey from Will to Lia? As personal interest stories go, that would have been a goldmine. Where were the interviews with Will's best friends who witnessed his transformation? Or with his family members who supported him during the tough times? I found myself wondering whether Will had ever really experienced dysmorphia or dysphoria. Did Will simply go to bed one night and wake up opportunistically as Lia the next day in order to increase his standing in his sport? Lacking facts, I reached no conclusions about either possibility.
And then came Will's keynote speech at Trans Joy in which he told all that could decently be said about his transformation from Will to Lia. There was big drama after all!
"Thomas detailed how her parents weren’t on board until they saw 1) how miserable she was trapped in a cis identity and 2) how happy she was once liberated from it—and possibly fully engaging in her autogynephilic delights. She’d initially thought she’d have to choose between transition and competitive swimming. She could have swum recreationally; transition and swum competitively in the male sex category with a hormonal disadvantage; or she could have it all: 'transition and swim competitively in the female sex category with a known advantage,' as my companion put it to me."
Why didn't the normally voyeuristic media tell the public about all this and more when Will was making headlines as Lia? Perhaps it was Will who decided to keep mum, not the media. In any case, I want to think that Lia was a two-dimensional character in the media when he was stealing titles from women because he or gatekeepers in the media decided that the public wasn't ready for a trans-eye view of the terrible alchemy by which men become women. It would not do, for example, for cishet audiences to hear about "those horrible days when Will had to change in the men’s locker room, feeling so exposed and uncomfortable and out of place." It's gross and the trans industrial complex doesn't want the public's mind going there. There's nothing rational about dysphoria or dysmorphia. The less said about that in the media the better.
More importantly, knowing too much about the facts and the calculus behind Will's decision to jump back into the pool as Lia might well have caused those who were merely casual trans allies to start thinking along heretical lines. You know, how "one big difference between trans women and women: the former don’t seem to realize that being a woman often means sacrificing, and not having control over your body and destiny." Or that “Thomas could have taken a step back, turned at the fork in the road, and started a tranny swim club to access and promote those benefits without putting anyone else out."