You guys are all my heroes. Thank you so much for the work that you have done to bring these issues to light. I won’t say who I voted for but I would be lying if I said I haven’t done the YMCA dance in the privacy of my kitchen when I’m home alone. I don’t believe a party that can’t define what a woman is deserves my vote. I became a single issue voter- restore title IX, protect children, women’s and girls, family first.
“Gender” and “social justice” have impacted my family and destroyed it in some ways. Before it happened I thought it was a made up thing. I was blindsided when my daughter told me she was born in the wrong body and wanted surgery to correct this. When I realized that Biden who I had voted for was all in on medicalizing 13 year olds it was over for me. It was the ultimate betrayal. The way it creeped in on us was through a high school GSA… I have since moved south in an attempt to save my son- my two daughters may already be lost to it although I still have some hope. Schools here don’t encourage and expose kids to these ideas and I am so grateful for that. Keep up the great work! Happy Thanksgiving!
Biden and the Democrats were loudly endorsing “gender affirming care” for children before the 2020 election. The pro-trans Human Rights Campaign was and is a major donor to the Democratic party.
There was even a televised “Transgender Town Hall” in 2020 during which all the Democrat Presidential contenders took turns pledging their support for “trans kids’ rights.” It’s unfortunate but not surprising that more people didn’t understand the implications of this endorsement sooner. None of us imagined that “gender” would worm its way into the minds and bodies of our own kids. We didn’t know the extent to which the American Federation of Teachers was and still is requiring teachers to target children in the classroom, educating them in the ideology of infinite genders and encouraging them to choose a new name and start the transition process behind the parents’ backs.
We moved to SC this past August. Originally from NJ where it all started for my family with this craziness and then to VA 2 years ago. If schools didn’t encourage kids to adopt these identities and then facilitate and applaud them for it I know for a fact that my kids wouldn’t have been caught up in it! It’s infuriating.
Some useful perspectives and experiences here and I appreciate you all. However, I would have liked to hear more about what it means to "win" overall. Does "winning" include preserving liberalism, which is already so weak in our country? Where will we be with that destroyed? Maybe most or all of you assume that the danger of authoritarianism and the destruction of democratic norms that many serious thinkers (including Anne Applebaum and as well as "heterodox" thinkers like Yascha Mounk and Sam Harris) have spoken and written about is overblown to the point of being a non-issue. That point of view certainly seems to be common, and if that is what you concluded I can only hope you are correct now that the election is over.
Most of you indicated you did not vote for either Trump or Harris, which I can understand. I would have felt less emotional pain being one of those voters. But I decided I could not afford to vote solely to make myself feel less disgusted. My feelings were irrelevant. My vote was (sadly) not toward something I wanted, but against something I see to be very, very dangerous on many fronts well beyond this issue we all care about. I voted against Donald Trump, and voting for Harris was the only way to do that in a way that counts.
Just writing this to point out that there is another undercounted group of voters: those of us "lifelong libs" who voted for Harris even though we have left the Democratic party and clearly see the horrible harms of GI and other identity policy issues. We are part of her tally, but we don't want to be. It's now a bit scary to even admit that publicly in a GC space honestly. We would have voted for another Republican candidate who actually was one of the two major parties we all knew had a chance to win, just to keep Harris and the Democrats from winning. Not just to punish them, but to stop their bad policies. For some of us, the threats to democracy seem completely rational and outweighed everything. There was a cursory acknowledgement near the beginning that we don't want to trade the authoritarian left for the authoritarian right, but I would have liked to hear more of your thinking about this general subject, especially from Lisa.
In response to Mary Taylor (the reply button wasn't working):
This is why I put in a write-in vote for president. I could not in good conscience vote for either party. I had an impossible choice. I could vote for the VP of the administration that destroyed Title IX and, more significantly for me personally, destroyed the notion of the sanctity of protecting the health of our youth, in favor of a delusional notion that helps nobody and hurts so many - including every single person it purports to protect. Or I could vote for a man who drew our entire democratic system into question, who is hateful toward veterans and heroic prisoners of war, disabled people, women who have been sexually molested, Muslims and Mexicans, etc., and who pitted states against each other and the federal government in obtaining protections during Covid, likely causing death and destruction. I shall not go on about Trump's failings, but you get the idea.
My write in vote was for someone I respect, who wrote an eloquent letter to Harris, beseeching her to reverse course on the horrible "gender ideology" notions that harm children, teens, vulnerable adults, women, and families, as well as calling reality itself into question. Then again, I live in a state where my vote didn't matter, which made my decision easier. I'm not sure what I would have done if my vote mattered more.
Your point, Mary, that we should not pick sides when it comes to protecting our basic safety, rights and welfare, is well taken - but you should know that many people felt they didn't have any choice at all in this election. While I was not happy to get Trump as President, I hold the Democratic party's failings in part responsible for letting him win.
Please don't hold it against the people that he got elected because this was a very odd election in which there was no good choice. While I agree that Trump was the "worse" option in many ways, and I see your point of view, both choices were so bad as to make it feel to many like a distinction with little difference. I hope you understand.
I have found that there are many people (I'm talking Democrats here) who are willing to at least see there are cracks in the dominant gender narrative. They don't know how to translate there gut questioning into actual questions or where to look. So, my goal is to look for and find these people to share the accurate information. Secondly, people who call themselves journalists have got to be challenged. I was struck by something said by Cath Leng, a BBC journalist at the LGB Alliance Conference in October. She said, "In journalism there is a view that there are no truths, but rather different viewpoints." And she went on to say, usually two in opposition to one another. This point counterpoint set up has been thoroughly in play for the last 40 years and has contributed to the enormous left right divide and siloed nature of the information streams. Challenging the journalist to follow the science and actual facts related to gender will also help expand the pool of people open to seeing they have information missing. I think hammering home the idea that all of this is rooted in homophobia and misogyny is also our big counterpoint that also needs to be made. Thanks for having the conversation! I look forward to your plan for more.
Why do we have distinct conservative and progressive news in the first place? How can we trust anything we read or hear when most or all so-called reporting focuses on ad hominem attacks of people “on the other side”? How often do we read apologies and retractions by publications that got the facts wrong? (the answer is never). And how can we possibly trust the so-called experts when they spend so much time suppressing the speech of other experts with different conclusions? Especially when the censors claim to be censoring in order to save Democracy?
What Jamie was saying at the end about how to have conversations and really be heard and get through to people, is spot on. When Cori brought up not knowing how to find a way in certain types of conversations, where you aren't just being heard but sincerely listen and consider what you're talking about, I wanted to jump in and say "They need to see you as a person first, they need to believe that you are invested in (at least some) the same things they are, that you have enough knowledge (so they don't think you have been instrumentalized by the right) and that you also come in good faith." It is not a quick process, which I know is a barrier but its the only thing I have had consistent success with. (Success would be opening up an ongoing dialogue, maintaining a good relationship, or in being persuasive.)
I used to be a very very radical leftist and I have found it situates me in a position to truly understand both sides of the issue and deeply understand the concerns and values that many people believe they are advocating for. I think those who find themselves in a similar place have a much better chance of being able to make inroads on the left.
This was a great conversation, I really liked hearing about how everyone is seeing things now and what they think the next few years may bring.
The title got my attention, the content was pretty much as I thought it would be.
People have to come together and unite.
Not like Biden united us all, either.
When we laser in on a specific topic and try to please microscopic rather than collective wants, needs, or desires for the nation., the “we vs three” mindset puts up pretty strong walls.
I am incredibly grateful an end will be apparently be put to the medicalization of children and youth and to the indoctrination of Gender Ideology into society. But at what cost, America?
The UK reversed this practice without electing someone who offends human decency.
For me, bottom line is the majority of Americans just knowingly voted in a convicted sex offender, someone who does not respect democracy …. no need to go on, we all know what he is and what he will do. Eyes should have been wide open on this. Gay rights are likely to fall. Think we’re safe now and that this isn’t coming back at us hard with a spike in hate crimes against LGB? Women’s rights will continue to be obliterated. Other world economies will bleed with the imposition of crippling tariffs. Do I think the majority of Americans care about the impact to other nations as the world’s leading superpower? I think not. That Americans can laugh about the election results and their impact speaks to American arrogance to me. Not a nation of people that are fit to lead IMO. With power comes responsibility to others.
Will I travel to the US again until decency is restored? No. In fact, I cancelled a trip and rebooked to Europe the day after the election. Am I boycotting, where possible, American goods? Yes. Do I think my country should quickly form alliances and trade partnerships with other countries that will act fairly in bargaining, who won’t play bully and whose leader doesn’t have the audacity to say 🇺🇸 may or may not defend it’s NATO allies if attacked? Absolutely.
Angry is an understatement. Americans have spoken and maybe it’s time for the world to respond.
Learn from history - anytime anyone picks sides and makes people within it’s nation into “the other”, democracy is at risk and lives are threatened. Wake up America.
He’s not a convicted sex offender. He was judged by a jury to be guilty of business records falsification. It was based on 34 misdemeanor charges for which the statute of limitations had passed. NY created a bizarre felony case that had never been done before. It is about to be dismissed. So he will ever be “convicted” as one is not convicted until sentencing.
He respects democracy more than any Democrat has shown themself to do in the last 4 years.
He was the most gay-friendly president in history. He appointed the first openly gay member of a presidential cabinet. He has appointed another openly gay member to this cabinet.
He has appointed numerous women. His campaign manager was a woman. He respects women’s sports and women’s spaces. Democrats were destroying women.
Biden kept some of Trump’s prior tariffs. There have always been tariffs.
If you think this country has been decent the last 4 years, I don’t know what to tell you. I was a Democrat all my life. I campaigned for every prior Democrat presidential nominee since 1987. And I’m an immigrant.
America is finally AWAKE. You have bought into lies from the media. You need to WAKE UP
Were you awake for the first Trump administration and for his latest presidential campaign? Asking that question in now way excuses the last four years of Biden. Trump is sexist and an offender, unless you think E. Jean Carroll, his first wife Ivana, and several other women who accused Trump of assault are all liars. Believe what you want to believe, just don't expect others to believe it too.
well I’ve heard some different perspectives on this conversation. The idea that Trump was going to help midagate trans activists bulldozing women’s rights i misguided. he does not care about anything or anyone but his own profit. whatever apparently About 70 million people disagreed with me. I didn’t get through the whole conversation yet. But I did hear protection of women’s rights from trans rights. which I appreciate. i
Believe that particularly white males use the trans issue as an expression of their entitlement “that they cannot be kept out of anywhere they want to be including women shelters in women’s gym spaces.” I wonder if there’s a way to Weaponize, as forcefully as the transactivists, to achieve acceptance of people dressing how they want whether they were born a man or a woman, i’m proposing that gender norms are the enemy. And that gender norms contribute to this feeling of being in the wrong body because I wanna dress and behave in ways that are supposed to be done by the other sex.
The other thing I heard here I don’t think I’ve heard for was left authoritarianism. No that wasn’t the phrase but anyway. Some interesting perspectives.
maybe You covered this later in the conversation but the huge money behind the medicalizing of gender should always be publicized And identified in any gender critical conversations.
I thought the discussion of toilets was actually a model of how to discuss a fraught issue as it is unfolding in an open, thoughtful way. I appreciated that Ben was open in expressing his concerns about Mace’s approach, which I share. Among other things, I felt putting a target on McBride’s back was not only inappropriate, but also counterproductive to the very valid points that need to be made about single-sex spaces. Thank you, Ben, for making sure that was part of the discussion, and thank you all for your nuanced responses.
Also, Helen Joyce recently noted—and I have observed similar things myself—that she has “seen a group of 8 [loos] in a pub with floor-to-ceiling doors, behind a self-closing fire door. Incredibly dangerous - all a predatory man has to do is hang around looking like he's waiting to use one, and push a woman back in when she comes out of one. Toilets are designed the way they are now for a reason - loads of thought has gone into making them as comfortable and safe as possible. Moreover, single cubicles are totally impractical in places like sports stadiums - take far too much space. Also, urinals are the most hygienic and best way to get lots of men through - cleaners really hate toilet cubicles that men use to pee. And women don't like having to sit on the seats after men have splashed all over them!”
Above all, thanks to you all for all your hard work to right the listing ship.
Sarah Tim McBride is not a benign player in the Nancy Mace/McBride bathroom saga. McBride has been an integral player in the HRC as spokesperson, the Obama-Biden Whitehouse, the Biden family, and pushing to undermine sex with “gender identity” in the Equality Act. So do NOT for a minute think that McBride is coming in on the federal level as some innocent, humble congressional character with the “best interests” of the folks from Delaware. A 5 minute google search of McBride’s background will show you otherwise.
And to Jamie, you’re sweet, but don’t worry about us “gender non-conforming, non-medicalized people” and how we move through the world. As a butch lesbian, I have literally been chased down by bathroom attendants in public spaces screaming “Sir! Sir!!” on my way into the women’s room. I get mistaken A LOT and have been for the last 30-some years. Then the person who mistook my appearance usually ends up apologizing profusely. It happens. Now it’s just a fun little game, lol. We’ll be fine. It builds character. XO!
Gender ideology that promotes medicalization of gender-confused youth and vulnerable adults is the biggest medical scandal of our generation. Sterilizing mostly gay and autistic youth is an abomination. Sex is binary and immutable. Surgeries and cross-sex hormones that alter secondary sex characteristics do not change sex. Teens and vulnerable adults cannot give consent to hormone treatments and surgeries that cut off healthy organs and lead to lifelong medical problems. Medicalizing these people makes them lifelong captives of big Pharma and greedy doctors.
Like all other cosmetic surgery, adults who want these surgeries and interventions should pay for it themselves. There is no evidence that taking hormones, mastectomies, or removal of testes and penises is an effective treatment for gender dysphoria.
History will harshly judge those who promote these horrific practices.
The last 20 minutes was most clear substantive part of this conversation. With Kore talking about his experience lobbying people that disagree. And Jesse talking about the seven hours of, I forget the word like cross examination, and how that went
I appreciate this conversation. I might try a Braver Angels event near me. We can’t change some minds, but I like the idea of a meeting with my elected representatives. I’ve done it years ago, but never re: gender issues.
is systemic and individual homicidal opposition to persons who are gender non conforming A large part of the problem? What percentage of trans people would accept the sex of their bodies more if they were allowed to express their gender preferences as a non-issue?
You guys are all my heroes. Thank you so much for the work that you have done to bring these issues to light. I won’t say who I voted for but I would be lying if I said I haven’t done the YMCA dance in the privacy of my kitchen when I’m home alone. I don’t believe a party that can’t define what a woman is deserves my vote. I became a single issue voter- restore title IX, protect children, women’s and girls, family first.
“Gender” and “social justice” have impacted my family and destroyed it in some ways. Before it happened I thought it was a made up thing. I was blindsided when my daughter told me she was born in the wrong body and wanted surgery to correct this. When I realized that Biden who I had voted for was all in on medicalizing 13 year olds it was over for me. It was the ultimate betrayal. The way it creeped in on us was through a high school GSA… I have since moved south in an attempt to save my son- my two daughters may already be lost to it although I still have some hope. Schools here don’t encourage and expose kids to these ideas and I am so grateful for that. Keep up the great work! Happy Thanksgiving!
Biden and the Democrats were loudly endorsing “gender affirming care” for children before the 2020 election. The pro-trans Human Rights Campaign was and is a major donor to the Democratic party.
There was even a televised “Transgender Town Hall” in 2020 during which all the Democrat Presidential contenders took turns pledging their support for “trans kids’ rights.” It’s unfortunate but not surprising that more people didn’t understand the implications of this endorsement sooner. None of us imagined that “gender” would worm its way into the minds and bodies of our own kids. We didn’t know the extent to which the American Federation of Teachers was and still is requiring teachers to target children in the classroom, educating them in the ideology of infinite genders and encouraging them to choose a new name and start the transition process behind the parents’ backs.
We moved to SC this past August. Originally from NJ where it all started for my family with this craziness and then to VA 2 years ago. If schools didn’t encourage kids to adopt these identities and then facilitate and applaud them for it I know for a fact that my kids wouldn’t have been caught up in it! It’s infuriating.
100%.
I feel exactly the same way, including the YMCA dance. Which state did you move to?
Some useful perspectives and experiences here and I appreciate you all. However, I would have liked to hear more about what it means to "win" overall. Does "winning" include preserving liberalism, which is already so weak in our country? Where will we be with that destroyed? Maybe most or all of you assume that the danger of authoritarianism and the destruction of democratic norms that many serious thinkers (including Anne Applebaum and as well as "heterodox" thinkers like Yascha Mounk and Sam Harris) have spoken and written about is overblown to the point of being a non-issue. That point of view certainly seems to be common, and if that is what you concluded I can only hope you are correct now that the election is over.
Most of you indicated you did not vote for either Trump or Harris, which I can understand. I would have felt less emotional pain being one of those voters. But I decided I could not afford to vote solely to make myself feel less disgusted. My feelings were irrelevant. My vote was (sadly) not toward something I wanted, but against something I see to be very, very dangerous on many fronts well beyond this issue we all care about. I voted against Donald Trump, and voting for Harris was the only way to do that in a way that counts.
Just writing this to point out that there is another undercounted group of voters: those of us "lifelong libs" who voted for Harris even though we have left the Democratic party and clearly see the horrible harms of GI and other identity policy issues. We are part of her tally, but we don't want to be. It's now a bit scary to even admit that publicly in a GC space honestly. We would have voted for another Republican candidate who actually was one of the two major parties we all knew had a chance to win, just to keep Harris and the Democrats from winning. Not just to punish them, but to stop their bad policies. For some of us, the threats to democracy seem completely rational and outweighed everything. There was a cursory acknowledgement near the beginning that we don't want to trade the authoritarian left for the authoritarian right, but I would have liked to hear more of your thinking about this general subject, especially from Lisa.
In response to Mary Taylor (the reply button wasn't working):
This is why I put in a write-in vote for president. I could not in good conscience vote for either party. I had an impossible choice. I could vote for the VP of the administration that destroyed Title IX and, more significantly for me personally, destroyed the notion of the sanctity of protecting the health of our youth, in favor of a delusional notion that helps nobody and hurts so many - including every single person it purports to protect. Or I could vote for a man who drew our entire democratic system into question, who is hateful toward veterans and heroic prisoners of war, disabled people, women who have been sexually molested, Muslims and Mexicans, etc., and who pitted states against each other and the federal government in obtaining protections during Covid, likely causing death and destruction. I shall not go on about Trump's failings, but you get the idea.
My write in vote was for someone I respect, who wrote an eloquent letter to Harris, beseeching her to reverse course on the horrible "gender ideology" notions that harm children, teens, vulnerable adults, women, and families, as well as calling reality itself into question. Then again, I live in a state where my vote didn't matter, which made my decision easier. I'm not sure what I would have done if my vote mattered more.
Your point, Mary, that we should not pick sides when it comes to protecting our basic safety, rights and welfare, is well taken - but you should know that many people felt they didn't have any choice at all in this election. While I was not happy to get Trump as President, I hold the Democratic party's failings in part responsible for letting him win.
Please don't hold it against the people that he got elected because this was a very odd election in which there was no good choice. While I agree that Trump was the "worse" option in many ways, and I see your point of view, both choices were so bad as to make it feel to many like a distinction with little difference. I hope you understand.
I have found that there are many people (I'm talking Democrats here) who are willing to at least see there are cracks in the dominant gender narrative. They don't know how to translate there gut questioning into actual questions or where to look. So, my goal is to look for and find these people to share the accurate information. Secondly, people who call themselves journalists have got to be challenged. I was struck by something said by Cath Leng, a BBC journalist at the LGB Alliance Conference in October. She said, "In journalism there is a view that there are no truths, but rather different viewpoints." And she went on to say, usually two in opposition to one another. This point counterpoint set up has been thoroughly in play for the last 40 years and has contributed to the enormous left right divide and siloed nature of the information streams. Challenging the journalist to follow the science and actual facts related to gender will also help expand the pool of people open to seeing they have information missing. I think hammering home the idea that all of this is rooted in homophobia and misogyny is also our big counterpoint that also needs to be made. Thanks for having the conversation! I look forward to your plan for more.
Why do we have distinct conservative and progressive news in the first place? How can we trust anything we read or hear when most or all so-called reporting focuses on ad hominem attacks of people “on the other side”? How often do we read apologies and retractions by publications that got the facts wrong? (the answer is never). And how can we possibly trust the so-called experts when they spend so much time suppressing the speech of other experts with different conclusions? Especially when the censors claim to be censoring in order to save Democracy?
Thank goodness for Substack. Long may it wave.
What Jamie was saying at the end about how to have conversations and really be heard and get through to people, is spot on. When Cori brought up not knowing how to find a way in certain types of conversations, where you aren't just being heard but sincerely listen and consider what you're talking about, I wanted to jump in and say "They need to see you as a person first, they need to believe that you are invested in (at least some) the same things they are, that you have enough knowledge (so they don't think you have been instrumentalized by the right) and that you also come in good faith." It is not a quick process, which I know is a barrier but its the only thing I have had consistent success with. (Success would be opening up an ongoing dialogue, maintaining a good relationship, or in being persuasive.)
I used to be a very very radical leftist and I have found it situates me in a position to truly understand both sides of the issue and deeply understand the concerns and values that many people believe they are advocating for. I think those who find themselves in a similar place have a much better chance of being able to make inroads on the left.
This was a great conversation, I really liked hearing about how everyone is seeing things now and what they think the next few years may bring.
“Our side”?
See, that’s where the problem lies within US politics. Everyone WANTS to be treated equal, but everyone DEMANDS special consideration.
Please answer honestly. Are you reacting to the title or the content?
Maybe you need an irony alert?
Perhaps you’ll one day realize you’re delusional world isn’t real.
The title got my attention, the content was pretty much as I thought it would be.
People have to come together and unite.
Not like Biden united us all, either.
When we laser in on a specific topic and try to please microscopic rather than collective wants, needs, or desires for the nation., the “we vs three” mindset puts up pretty strong walls.
The “our side” comment is off putting to me too.
Living outside the US pond, I can honestly say why I’m pleased
I am incredibly grateful an end will be apparently be put to the medicalization of children and youth and to the indoctrination of Gender Ideology into society. But at what cost, America?
The UK reversed this practice without electing someone who offends human decency.
For me, bottom line is the majority of Americans just knowingly voted in a convicted sex offender, someone who does not respect democracy …. no need to go on, we all know what he is and what he will do. Eyes should have been wide open on this. Gay rights are likely to fall. Think we’re safe now and that this isn’t coming back at us hard with a spike in hate crimes against LGB? Women’s rights will continue to be obliterated. Other world economies will bleed with the imposition of crippling tariffs. Do I think the majority of Americans care about the impact to other nations as the world’s leading superpower? I think not. That Americans can laugh about the election results and their impact speaks to American arrogance to me. Not a nation of people that are fit to lead IMO. With power comes responsibility to others.
Will I travel to the US again until decency is restored? No. In fact, I cancelled a trip and rebooked to Europe the day after the election. Am I boycotting, where possible, American goods? Yes. Do I think my country should quickly form alliances and trade partnerships with other countries that will act fairly in bargaining, who won’t play bully and whose leader doesn’t have the audacity to say 🇺🇸 may or may not defend it’s NATO allies if attacked? Absolutely.
Angry is an understatement. Americans have spoken and maybe it’s time for the world to respond.
Learn from history - anytime anyone picks sides and makes people within it’s nation into “the other”, democracy is at risk and lives are threatened. Wake up America.
I’m sorry but you have been misled.
He’s not a convicted sex offender. He was judged by a jury to be guilty of business records falsification. It was based on 34 misdemeanor charges for which the statute of limitations had passed. NY created a bizarre felony case that had never been done before. It is about to be dismissed. So he will ever be “convicted” as one is not convicted until sentencing.
He respects democracy more than any Democrat has shown themself to do in the last 4 years.
He was the most gay-friendly president in history. He appointed the first openly gay member of a presidential cabinet. He has appointed another openly gay member to this cabinet.
He has appointed numerous women. His campaign manager was a woman. He respects women’s sports and women’s spaces. Democrats were destroying women.
Biden kept some of Trump’s prior tariffs. There have always been tariffs.
If you think this country has been decent the last 4 years, I don’t know what to tell you. I was a Democrat all my life. I campaigned for every prior Democrat presidential nominee since 1987. And I’m an immigrant.
America is finally AWAKE. You have bought into lies from the media. You need to WAKE UP
Were you awake for the first Trump administration and for his latest presidential campaign? Asking that question in now way excuses the last four years of Biden. Trump is sexist and an offender, unless you think E. Jean Carroll, his first wife Ivana, and several other women who accused Trump of assault are all liars. Believe what you want to believe, just don't expect others to believe it too.
What a jerk of a response - “give it a friggon rest”? Did you mean to say fuck off?
well I’ve heard some different perspectives on this conversation. The idea that Trump was going to help midagate trans activists bulldozing women’s rights i misguided. he does not care about anything or anyone but his own profit. whatever apparently About 70 million people disagreed with me. I didn’t get through the whole conversation yet. But I did hear protection of women’s rights from trans rights. which I appreciate. i
Believe that particularly white males use the trans issue as an expression of their entitlement “that they cannot be kept out of anywhere they want to be including women shelters in women’s gym spaces.” I wonder if there’s a way to Weaponize, as forcefully as the transactivists, to achieve acceptance of people dressing how they want whether they were born a man or a woman, i’m proposing that gender norms are the enemy. And that gender norms contribute to this feeling of being in the wrong body because I wanna dress and behave in ways that are supposed to be done by the other sex.
The other thing I heard here I don’t think I’ve heard for was left authoritarianism. No that wasn’t the phrase but anyway. Some interesting perspectives.
maybe You covered this later in the conversation but the huge money behind the medicalizing of gender should always be publicized And identified in any gender critical conversations.
ps I didn’t fully understand each of your statements about what your steak is in this. I heard that some of been writing about it for a long time.
I thought the discussion of toilets was actually a model of how to discuss a fraught issue as it is unfolding in an open, thoughtful way. I appreciated that Ben was open in expressing his concerns about Mace’s approach, which I share. Among other things, I felt putting a target on McBride’s back was not only inappropriate, but also counterproductive to the very valid points that need to be made about single-sex spaces. Thank you, Ben, for making sure that was part of the discussion, and thank you all for your nuanced responses.
Eliza mentioned the Sex Matters materials on this issue, which are indeed very good Here’s a link to a pamphlet they did on the issue: https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Toilets-matter.pdf
Also, Helen Joyce recently noted—and I have observed similar things myself—that she has “seen a group of 8 [loos] in a pub with floor-to-ceiling doors, behind a self-closing fire door. Incredibly dangerous - all a predatory man has to do is hang around looking like he's waiting to use one, and push a woman back in when she comes out of one. Toilets are designed the way they are now for a reason - loads of thought has gone into making them as comfortable and safe as possible. Moreover, single cubicles are totally impractical in places like sports stadiums - take far too much space. Also, urinals are the most hygienic and best way to get lots of men through - cleaners really hate toilet cubicles that men use to pee. And women don't like having to sit on the seats after men have splashed all over them!”
Above all, thanks to you all for all your hard work to right the listing ship.
Two points:
Sarah Tim McBride is not a benign player in the Nancy Mace/McBride bathroom saga. McBride has been an integral player in the HRC as spokesperson, the Obama-Biden Whitehouse, the Biden family, and pushing to undermine sex with “gender identity” in the Equality Act. So do NOT for a minute think that McBride is coming in on the federal level as some innocent, humble congressional character with the “best interests” of the folks from Delaware. A 5 minute google search of McBride’s background will show you otherwise.
And to Jamie, you’re sweet, but don’t worry about us “gender non-conforming, non-medicalized people” and how we move through the world. As a butch lesbian, I have literally been chased down by bathroom attendants in public spaces screaming “Sir! Sir!!” on my way into the women’s room. I get mistaken A LOT and have been for the last 30-some years. Then the person who mistook my appearance usually ends up apologizing profusely. It happens. Now it’s just a fun little game, lol. We’ll be fine. It builds character. XO!
Maybe we reach people by being direct:
Gender ideology that promotes medicalization of gender-confused youth and vulnerable adults is the biggest medical scandal of our generation. Sterilizing mostly gay and autistic youth is an abomination. Sex is binary and immutable. Surgeries and cross-sex hormones that alter secondary sex characteristics do not change sex. Teens and vulnerable adults cannot give consent to hormone treatments and surgeries that cut off healthy organs and lead to lifelong medical problems. Medicalizing these people makes them lifelong captives of big Pharma and greedy doctors.
Like all other cosmetic surgery, adults who want these surgeries and interventions should pay for it themselves. There is no evidence that taking hormones, mastectomies, or removal of testes and penises is an effective treatment for gender dysphoria.
History will harshly judge those who promote these horrific practices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frffv2sB8zE
The last 20 minutes was most clear substantive part of this conversation. With Kore talking about his experience lobbying people that disagree. And Jesse talking about the seven hours of, I forget the word like cross examination, and how that went
I appreciate this conversation. I might try a Braver Angels event near me. We can’t change some minds, but I like the idea of a meeting with my elected representatives. I’ve done it years ago, but never re: gender issues.
is systemic and individual homicidal opposition to persons who are gender non conforming A large part of the problem? What percentage of trans people would accept the sex of their bodies more if they were allowed to express their gender preferences as a non-issue?
Is Lisa a skateboarder?
You definitely undersold yourselves on your introductions.